I can't seem to leave this one alone (5.20)

[ash48]

Can anyone shed some light on why it was important that Crowley had to have the boys separated? Surely if his end game is to get Brady to confess the whereabouts of Pestilence then 2 Winchesters are better than one? I mean, I know why it was important for us,to have them separated (to show Sam's anger, Dean having to trust Sam, Sam's talk to Bobby etc.) But what was Crowley's motivation I wonder. (I suspect I missed it maybe, or it was never made clear. I mean I don't believe it's just because Crowley "doesn't like him" etc.) If he examined his plan he would have seen that he was just leading Dean to his potential death, and thus not achieving his goal.

I have in fact been musing on an alternative scenario which possibly may have made more sense and still achieved the writer's goal of showing us the (and I use the word lightly here) character developments they wanted to show us.

What if it had been Sam that went with Crowley and not Dean? We would have had the whole trust issue played out right there. Dean having to trust Sam in going off with the demon. Also, for Crowley it would have made more sense to the select Sam anyway. Especially if he knew the connection between Brady and Sam. He could have be planning to use Sam's anger to get Brady to talk. (I haven't figured out why he wouldn't want Dean as well yet. But then I can't figure out why he didn't want Sam either...).

Then we could have had a scene with Brady and Sam that might have established their past relationship more clearly. In fact the reveal could have been quite powerful and here we really could have seen Sam really let loose and pull back at the last minute realising he needed Brady to talk. Thus we see that Sam CAN control his anger when he needs to. On his own.

We then would have had Sam come down with a beaten up Brady (with a possibly a smug "my plan worked" and impressed "wow, Sam's a tough SOB" Crowley) instead of Brady beating up Dean and Dean escaping....um.... somehow (not really sure how he managed that actually). Also means we wouldn't have had to suffer poor Dean looking "beaten" - both physically and mentally.

Then Crowley wants Sam to make him talk right there but instead Sam wants to take him back to Dean so they can work on him TOGETHER. Yay... brother moment. And Dean would still have seen that Sam could be trusted and keep control.

Fanciful thinking I know. And would still leave lots of holes. It would mean Sam doesn't get a chance to talk to Bobby about his cunning plan for instance, but I'm sure they could have squeezed that in somehow...

Also, at the end, I think I might liked to have seen Sam take the upper hand by NOT killing Brady. Leaving Brady to a worse fate might have been more satisfying (in the revenge stakes) and we would have seen a different kind of strength in Sam. Revenge killing just seemed a bit of a cop out. It would have also been a nice reminder of the Sam we used to have... one where killing didn't come so easily. And Dean could have been equally proud of Sam's restraint. But I know. He's changed and it's probably important for the upcoming episode that he's this kind of bad ass.



Ok. I'll leave this alone now. Time to move on. I was making plans with my mum for my up coming trip to Sydney. So I'm getting all excited about that now.... \o/.

Comments

[emeraldsedai.livejournal.com]

I don't have any big answers for you, but I wanted to express my appreciation of your deep thought on the subject. It's frankly more than the writers deserve: they really have cut so many corners and ignored all but the biggest chunks of canon at one time or another that their dependence on fans to mortar the bits together with careful thought and fanfic is just shameful.

I enjoyed the episode, but I've finally concluded that my inability to remember the details of SPN in the last couple of seasons is not (just) aging-brain syndrome, but the fact that the details have no emotional or intellectual coherence.

Beat-up Dean! Angry Sam! Separate them again! It all sounds like writers-room brainstorming in search of a good solid story idea that never came.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

but I wanted to express my appreciation of your deep thought on the subject

:D It is quite ridiculous how much thinking I've done over this. (In fact I think I might have just picked up a speeding fine because I was concentrating on this and not my driving!).

I am still emotionally attached to the show - even after everything they're put the boys through - but one more episode like that I might have to start pulling myself back. If I can.

I am glad you enjoyed the episode though. I really wish I had done. But its inconsistencies have frustrated me beyond reason.

*hugs* and thanks hun. I've found chatting about it at least therapeutic.
xx

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

This doesn't really answer your question to a deeper reason for Crowley not wanting Sam along but in terms of the plot my reading of the episode was that it was setting up a mirror, in terms of reversing the boys previous positions. That is previously Dean would never have trusted a demon (and Sam has), and Sam was adamant that he would never say yes to Lucifer (and Dean obviously has just been considering this). By reversing their positions both in relation to their own stance, and in each brother now considering the very thing he'd warned his brother about, the show is emphasizing both the boys' increased understanding of his brother and also OMG THIS IS DIRE ITS THE APOCALYPSE - ie a time when one considers the unimaginable.

Remember, the show loves mirroring both characters and situations.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. That makes sense. I do like the way they use mirrors and that could well have been another reason why they chose to have Dean do the leaving. In fact, may have been the initial thought that drove the whole situation.

So it's like in one episode they gave us the Dean version of Sam and Ruby. (well, not exactly of course..) Even down to having Dean betrayed by the demon. And Sam left feeling a sense of betrayal.... hmmm.

Thanks. It still left me completely frustrated and annoyed but I like that there could have been more thought behind this than I initially gave it credit for.

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It disappoints me that I'm so disappointed in my show over such a stupid nothing episode.

Oh yes. Me too. It's like (for me anyway) - "just get over it already. It's just one episode!" And really, I will... as long as the next 2 make more sense. :)

And I like the idea that season 6 could be the redeeming season... :)

I know I have bitched and complained, but as I said in my first post it's only because I care so damn much. I still love my show and my boys. And I really hope I still can in the future. I'd hate to have a falling out with my show. (I know some fans have and I feel sad about that...)

*hug* thanks sweetie.
xx

[varkelton]

Oooh! Your episode sounds awesome! I like me some capable Sammy! Okay, you're hired! Hmmm... now I have to get their producers to recognize my hiring authority. This could take a while...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HA! *hugs*

I can see the fans storming the writing room now. "Move over guys. We know where this show should be going....!"

Hmmm.

*goes back to making vids*

[phx69.livejournal.com]

Crowley knew Sam knew Brady and that things would get ugly fast once Sam realized Brady was possessed, and Crowley needed Brady alive. So he only wanted Dean to go with him because Dean did now know Brady. That's it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh. Hmmm....

Ok. I get that. Dean was less of an immediate to Brady. In fact it wouldn't have mattered if Brady had killed Dean. Because he still would have had Brady. But then he would have had a very pissed Sam.

So now I'm not sure why Crowley even needed the Winchesters. He could have just gone and got Brady himself and then maybe taken him to the Winchesters for interrogating. Though even then he could have done that himself because he had the bigger hell hound etc. (though I'm pretty sure Brady just wanted to "play" the Winchesters anyway, so that gives him a reason for involving them I suppose. In fact. That it would seem to be the only reason. grrrr)

*sheesh* I'm talking myself into knots.

Thanks hun. I can definitely see that Dean was less of a threat. I still don't like it. At all. But that does make some sense.

xx

[phx69.livejournal.com]

Well Crowley needs Sam and Dean because they have two of the rings so he needs to be in 'bed' with them in order to stop Lucifer. THEY are the only ones with a shot. And we've already seen that he is reluctant to do this by himself. He only went into the den of demons because he had no other choice - and really? How do we know he even went? It could have been a ploy.

Personally I think Crowley is being set up as their enemy for the next season as I don't trust him and Dean was written as just being stupid for going with him. Sloppy writing, in my opinion.

[secretlytodream.livejournal.com]

Er, I thought it was because Crowely knew about what happened back in Stanford? And he didn't want Sam to ruin everything by killing that demon-boy? I thought it was like that :\

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - it seems like that's the reason. Phx suggested that above and I can see the sense in that. I suppose.

Damn demons! He could have taken Sam and ended with the same result. Though missyjack suggested it was set up that way to mirror Sam leaving Dean for Ruby... so yeah. Looks like I'll just have to accept it.

*sigh*

Thanks honey! <333

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I would have liked your take much more.

Honestly it would have made most sense for Crowley to zap into Brady's office, throw the sack over his head, whack him and throw him out of the window for Dean and Sam to transport. Wouldn't have killed the demon and as far as it's been shown demons can zap themselves but unlike angels not others?

Several things strike me, why did Crowley need Dean in that office at all? Ok, maybe Crowley wanted Brady to kill Dean? He really didn't stand a chance against Brady - in an enclosed elevator - *facepalm*. How long would it take Michael to bring him back? Not sure, but I think Crowley must have more of an end game than he's admitting, one thing show tells us is that demons may be evil bastards but they are pretty loyal evil bastards, what made Crowley think Brady would give up his master? Or that either Winchester was up to torturing the answer out of him, which actually neither tried, they asked, he refused, they killed him. Um, yeah, what was the plot again?

They got absolutely nothing in the end - except - they were totally distracted from the vaccine story that was in the opening.

Sam may be having problems controlling his anger, but springing something on someone is the ideal way of getting them riled up, simply telling Sam before they both left exactly who Brady was would have worked, Sam may be hot tempered, but he can be pretty chilling in his revenge too, so I'm thinking once more that Crowley is intent on feeding Sam's anger and the only one that wants Sam really angry is - Lucifer. I'm still not sure Crowley is against Lucifer per se, he seems to be doing the exact thing Lucifer is, if Crowley had come back with only Brady and not Dean? Hmmm...there's got to be a twist to this eventually.

Crowley - who is he really? Did Bobby use the Colt, I'm really lost on that one, if he did then Crowley is much higher in the food chain than Azazel, or maybe not a demon at all? Crowley also has control of the hellhounds and those super duper demon bugging coins - oh how I love the way they suddenly dropped that pile of stinking shit into the plot. No one's even mentioned the fact that either the hex bags could be fooled or that demons can bug your conversations and all of a sudden we have not one demon using them but two? Oh, please.

So the rings hold Lucifer, does Crowley really want Lucifer caged or do the rings have some other significance?

Two episodes and two rings to go? I honestly think they should have put the rings in play several episodes ago and built up more tension - I like the idea, I just think they could have played with this plan for a lot longer and avoided some of those tedious old issues arguments we've been saddled with. But there again I'm all about the boys being together, I want them to be strong and independent and less self sacrificing, but I also want them to stand solidly behind each other, back each other up. I can see the reasoning behind the "we're each other's biggest weakness" but I can also get so frustrated at scenes like those ones in heaven when they could have used those memories to fortify their strengths. Sam's leaving scene was where they should have realised they were being manipulated and Dean could have told him how proud he was and when Zac and Mary were taunting Dean about everyone leaving Sam could have stood behind Dean and said "not everyone left for good" or something.

I know, I'm whining now, but the boys are SO far down now they're at the stage where I'm just not connecting with them emotionally any longer, I need to feel they feel something for each other apart from saving the world. I fear for season 6, or rather I fear for my own connection to these two characters I fell in love with...and now I'm rambling my shit all over your journal - sorry hon. ♥

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi! Yay!... your comment is as long as my post! \o/

I would have liked your take much more

:) Thanks. The whole scenario has been bugging me so much, I just kept thinking about other ways it might have worked.

why did Crowley need Dean in that office at all?

Excellent question. And really? There is no conceivable reason that I can figure that Dean needed to be there. Only, perhaps, if Crowley wanted him dead. But I think if that was his end game Show would have let us know somehow. Maybe they are saving it for the future? We might find out that he did want Dean dead. But even then that doesn't make a damn lick of sense because Michael can just bring Dean back. So as you say.. Why?? Far too many whys in that whole scene.

Even with everybody's very fair answers to the question I posed above I just cannot reconcile that whole set up. Even if, as missyjack says above, the show was mirroring Sam's running off with Ruby they still could have done it in a way that was less...um.... stupid or something. Less rushed maybe. Gave us a better reason for Dean trusting Crowley so readily. (and leaving Sam behind when he was obviously going into a very dangerous situation? Nah. No sense.

they were totally distracted from the vaccine story that was in the opening.

Oh what? There was a vaccine, swine flu story?? *is sarcastic* I actually liked the opening... I forgot that I was having a chuckle at the masks. But yes. Nothing was gained at the end of this. And I know the episode wasn't set for them to really get anywhere, it was (as far as I can figure) to re-introduce Crowley, re-show Sam's anger issues and re-show Dean.... oh dear.... I just hate what they did to Dean. Let's not go there. :(

Oooh - I love your idea that Crowley is getting Sam angry for Lucifer. Now THAT would give it meaning... Crowley might well have meant Dean to be killed and holy crap that would have sent Sam over the edge. Only. Michael would bring Dean back no doubt. But that still would have been a pissed off Sam. As it was he was pretty pissed.

And that's why I suggested above that if Crowley had used Sam instead he could have had a very pissed off Sam right in his hands.

It's been suggested to me above that Crowley didn't want Brady dead and that's why he chose Dean to go with him. And that would make sense if Crowley is working for Lucifer (and I can totally buy that he is. And why it makes NO SENSE that the boys are even listening to him!!). Equally Crowley could genuinely want Lucifer out of the way. In that case why try and kill Dean? And piss off Sam? *hands* No idea. (yet!)

Did Bobby use the Colt

Ahh - apparently not. Check out similla02's reaction post. There's some chat about that there. It's worth checking out anyway. She makes some good points about the episode. More articulate than me.. :) She also suggests that Crowley might be being set up as the big bad in Season 6. And if he does end up with Bobby's soul, then the boys will have a new "mission" in season 6. Interesting idea I thought.

So the rings hold Lucifer, does Crowley really want Lucifer caged or do the rings have some other significance?

That would be interesting. I wondered if Lu knows about the rings and has sent Crowley to retrieve them? And at the same time keep tabs on the Winchesters? It goes with the theory of keeping Sam angry..... Hmmm. I am sincerely hoping "all will be revealed" in the next 2 episodes and I can look back on this one and say.... oh that's why....

And yes to your second to last paragraph. (I can't quote is all here), but yes to all that. Well put. :)

And you're not whining. It's trying to make sense of something we love more than is reasonable and wanting it all to be ok. I do hope Kripke doesn't loose sight of why he has such loyal followers to his show. It's those boys and their relationship. And we can only cope with them being at odds with each other for so long. It would be great to get past all the trust issues etc. and get on with working together to kick some supernatural ass!

*huggles* thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.

*clings* for the future episodes.. <333333

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

«   »

She also suggests that Crowley might be being set up as the big bad in Season 6. And if he does end up with Bobby's soul, then the boys will have a new "mission" in season 6. Interesting idea I thought.

Yes, very interesting and maybe they can come up with some solutions to that mission and quests all by themselves next year and not be dragged from pillar to post by one side or another - I'd like that, them working against an antagonist, maybe a linked series of tasks they need to accomplish using their skills and wiles, so fingers crossed most definitely for that. Have to admit being spoiler free and this close to the finale I'm pretty much avoiding all post episode metas and discussions - it's so easy to stumble on a journal that has spoilers in the comments.

And thank you for always having such great discussions and theories that are always open to many ideas and speculations no matter how strange. ♥

[ash48.livejournal.com]

it's so easy to stumble on a journal that has spoilers in the comments.

Yep. Already came across one of those.. *sigh*. Normally I don't mind, but I've been trying really hard to remain unspoiled. Though I'm thinking about spoiling myself for the next one just to be prepared. I'm sooooo scared I'm going to hate it and I just don't want to. I would rather squee about an episode that be down on it.

But chatting has helped. :) I do love nutting it all out. Adds to the fun....

<3333

PS: and united to fight the next big bad would be WONDERFUL... god I hope that happens. I'm sincerely hoping they'll be united in fighting whatever is coming in the final 2 eps. And they give our beautiful boys back their brains... ;)

xx

[etoile444.livejournal.com]

Bobby didn't use the colt (as far as I can tell) which makes me ask why? The writers have made bobby look like the dumbest man on Earth this season!!!!! I think Crowley is a demon and I'm sure he has some plan up his sleeve. It would have been nothing to him to have Dean dead (and maybe then the chance of Michael touching down and killing all of demon kind would be gone). Crowley also hates Sam b/c Sam is the vessel for the other angel that Crowley is very much afraid of. I can see why Crowley might hate both Winchesters.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

«   »

Bobby didn't use the colt (as far as I can tell)

Ah, great, thank you, that does make more sense, I really couldn't understand Crowley saying it wouldn't kill him - but, if Bobby was just shooting him with a normal weapon to make himself feel better? Then yep, the line makes more sense and means Crowley is most likely a demon - well to me anyway!

The writers seem to have gone out of their way to make everyone stupid - have the Winchesters actually driven the plot with any sense of their own competency at all this year? I'm sure they must have, but I can't think of one this morning...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think Crowley is a demon and I'm sure he has some plan up his sleeve

It was my understanding that Crowley is definitely a demon.. That's what's made me so pissed... why are they even listening to a demon??!!

And I'm certain he has a plan up his sleeve... and not a good one.

<33

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Also, at the end, I think I might liked to have seen Sam take the upper hand by NOT killing Brady.

To me there was something very cold blooded about Sam killing Brady. Not the hot angry Sam we know. The whole thing was like an execution. This way Sam is not a victim of the things done to him anymore, no more "Mr Nice Guy". But no hot anger either. Maybe now he is the Sam who can overcome Lucifer.

Because remember, even Brady wanted Sam to get so angry that he would loose it and kill him in hot anger. Falling for his hot anger is to me the same as drinking demon blood and that is what Lucifer wants in order to get a perfect vessel.

I hope this makes sense. I find it really hard to choose the right words here.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes that does make sense. It was cold blooded and I agree that could be the Sam we need in order to kill Lucifer - some how.

I mean, I suppose I wish is wasn't. We know Sam is very capable of killing. We've seen it in him before. But maybe it was about killing without the anger. Though he was pretty damn angry.

I suppose I just didn't really like that scene overall. I mean, it was well shot and it was pretty "hot", but it was actually quite hard to watch Sam being so cold blooded... and Dean watching on.

Thanks though hun. I think we did need to see this side of Sam as well.

(and I fixed the tags...:) I think.. )

xx

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Though he was pretty damn angry.

Yes, he was. But this time it wasn't out of feelings of helplessness. I think Sam gave back all the pain by deliberately killing Brady. He took control. Sam sort of released his own darkness, fully consious. And even Dean found it hard to watch. (I understand that this is what you didn't want to have to see. *hugs*)

The tag shows on the one post but doesn't show up on the list, so I couldn't tag my other post. (..??..technology..*shakes head*).
I also found one or two more tags that need to be created (I checked my older posts). Just saying though, no hurry.

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

He took control.

Yeah. It was a more controlled anger, I agree.

Um.. ok, I'll check out the tags. I've just started doing tags, so I'll see if I can figure it out.

thanks hun. :)

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Oh, you fixed all the tags! Great!!:D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm learning as I go... I was meant to do those a while back. thanks for the heads up or I never would have remembered. Those new ones should be on the list now.. :)

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Yep! Saw them on the list. *nods*