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ash48Can anyone shed some light on why it was important that Crowley had to have the boys separated? Surely if his end game is to get Brady to confess the whereabouts of Pestilence then 2 Winchesters are better than one? I mean, I know why it was important for us,to have them separated (to show Sam's anger, Dean having to trust Sam, Sam's talk to Bobby etc.) But what was Crowley's motivation I wonder. (I suspect I missed it maybe, or it was never made clear. I mean I don't believe it's just because Crowley "doesn't like him" etc.) If he examined his plan he would have seen that he was just leading Dean to his potential death, and thus not achieving his goal.
I have in fact been musing on an alternative scenario which possibly may have made more sense and still achieved the writer's goal of showing us the (and I use the word lightly here) character developments they wanted to show us.
What if it had been Sam that went with Crowley and not Dean? We would have had the whole trust issue played out right there. Dean having to trust Sam in going off with the demon. Also, for Crowley it would have made more sense to the select Sam anyway. Especially if he knew the connection between Brady and Sam. He could have be planning to use Sam's anger to get Brady to talk. (I haven't figured out why he wouldn't want Dean as well yet. But then I can't figure out why he didn't want Sam either...).
Then we could have had a scene with Brady and Sam that might have established their past relationship more clearly. In fact the reveal could have been quite powerful and here we really could have seen Sam really let loose and pull back at the last minute realising he needed Brady to talk. Thus we see that Sam CAN control his anger when he needs to. On his own.
We then would have had Sam come down with a beaten up Brady (with a possibly a smug "my plan worked" and impressed "wow, Sam's a tough SOB" Crowley) instead of Brady beating up Dean and Dean escaping....um.... somehow (not really sure how he managed that actually). Also means we wouldn't have had to suffer poor Dean looking "beaten" - both physically and mentally.
Then Crowley wants Sam to make him talk right there but instead Sam wants to take him back to Dean so they can work on him TOGETHER. Yay... brother moment. And Dean would still have seen that Sam could be trusted and keep control.
Fanciful thinking I know. And would still leave lots of holes. It would mean Sam doesn't get a chance to talk to Bobby about his cunning plan for instance, but I'm sure they could have squeezed that in somehow...
Also, at the end, I think I might liked to have seen Sam take the upper hand by NOT killing Brady. Leaving Brady to a worse fate might have been more satisfying (in the revenge stakes) and we would have seen a different kind of strength in Sam. Revenge killing just seemed a bit of a cop out. It would have also been a nice reminder of the Sam we used to have... one where killing didn't come so easily. And Dean could have been equally proud of Sam's restraint. But I know. He's changed and it's probably important for the upcoming episode that he's this kind of bad ass.
Ok. I'll leave this alone now. Time to move on. I was making plans with my mum for my up coming trip to Sydney. So I'm getting all excited about that now.... \o/.
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Date: 2010-05-02 08:05 am (UTC)Honestly it would have made most sense for Crowley to zap into Brady's office, throw the sack over his head, whack him and throw him out of the window for Dean and Sam to transport. Wouldn't have killed the demon and as far as it's been shown demons can zap themselves but unlike angels not others?
Several things strike me, why did Crowley need Dean in that office at all? Ok, maybe Crowley wanted Brady to kill Dean? He really didn't stand a chance against Brady - in an enclosed elevator - *facepalm*. How long would it take Michael to bring him back? Not sure, but I think Crowley must have more of an end game than he's admitting, one thing show tells us is that demons may be evil bastards but they are pretty loyal evil bastards, what made Crowley think Brady would give up his master? Or that either Winchester was up to torturing the answer out of him, which actually neither tried, they asked, he refused, they killed him. Um, yeah, what was the plot again?
They got absolutely nothing in the end - except - they were totally distracted from the vaccine story that was in the opening.
Sam may be having problems controlling his anger, but springing something on someone is the ideal way of getting them riled up, simply telling Sam before they both left exactly who Brady was would have worked, Sam may be hot tempered, but he can be pretty chilling in his revenge too, so I'm thinking once more that Crowley is intent on feeding Sam's anger and the only one that wants Sam really angry is - Lucifer. I'm still not sure Crowley is against Lucifer per se, he seems to be doing the exact thing Lucifer is, if Crowley had come back with only Brady and not Dean? Hmmm...there's got to be a twist to this eventually.
Crowley - who is he really? Did Bobby use the Colt, I'm really lost on that one, if he did then Crowley is much higher in the food chain than Azazel, or maybe not a demon at all? Crowley also has control of the hellhounds and those super duper demon bugging coins - oh how I love the way they suddenly dropped that pile of stinking shit into the plot. No one's even mentioned the fact that either the hex bags could be fooled or that demons can bug your conversations and all of a sudden we have not one demon using them but two? Oh, please.
So the rings hold Lucifer, does Crowley really want Lucifer caged or do the rings have some other significance?
Two episodes and two rings to go? I honestly think they should have put the rings in play several episodes ago and built up more tension - I like the idea, I just think they could have played with this plan for a lot longer and avoided some of those tedious old issues arguments we've been saddled with. But there again I'm all about the boys being together, I want them to be strong and independent and less self sacrificing, but I also want them to stand solidly behind each other, back each other up. I can see the reasoning behind the "we're each other's biggest weakness" but I can also get so frustrated at scenes like those ones in heaven when they could have used those memories to fortify their strengths. Sam's leaving scene was where they should have realised they were being manipulated and Dean could have told him how proud he was and when Zac and Mary were taunting Dean about everyone leaving Sam could have stood behind Dean and said "not everyone left for good" or something.
I know, I'm whining now, but the boys are SO far down now they're at the stage where I'm just not connecting with them emotionally any longer, I need to feel they feel something for each other apart from saving the world. I fear for season 6, or rather I fear for my own connection to these two characters I fell in love with...and now I'm rambling my shit all over your journal - sorry hon. ♥
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 10:25 am (UTC)I would have liked your take much more
:) Thanks. The whole scenario has been bugging me so much, I just kept thinking about other ways it might have worked.
why did Crowley need Dean in that office at all?
Excellent question. And really? There is no conceivable reason that I can figure that Dean needed to be there. Only, perhaps, if Crowley wanted him dead. But I think if that was his end game Show would have let us know somehow. Maybe they are saving it for the future? We might find out that he did want Dean dead. But even then that doesn't make a damn lick of sense because Michael can just bring Dean back. So as you say.. Why?? Far too many whys in that whole scene.
Even with everybody's very fair answers to the question I posed above I just cannot reconcile that whole set up. Even if, as missyjack says above, the show was mirroring Sam's running off with Ruby they still could have done it in a way that was less...um.... stupid or something. Less rushed maybe. Gave us a better reason for Dean trusting Crowley so readily. (and leaving Sam behind when he was obviously going into a very dangerous situation? Nah. No sense.
they were totally distracted from the vaccine story that was in the opening.
Oh what? There was a vaccine, swine flu story?? *is sarcastic* I actually liked the opening... I forgot that I was having a chuckle at the masks. But yes. Nothing was gained at the end of this. And I know the episode wasn't set for them to really get anywhere, it was (as far as I can figure) to re-introduce Crowley, re-show Sam's anger issues and re-show Dean.... oh dear.... I just hate what they did to Dean. Let's not go there. :(
Oooh - I love your idea that Crowley is getting Sam angry for Lucifer. Now THAT would give it meaning... Crowley might well have meant Dean to be killed and holy crap that would have sent Sam over the edge. Only. Michael would bring Dean back no doubt. But that still would have been a pissed off Sam. As it was he was pretty pissed.
And that's why I suggested above that if Crowley had used Sam instead he could have had a very pissed off Sam right in his hands.
It's been suggested to me above that Crowley didn't want Brady dead and that's why he chose Dean to go with him. And that would make sense if Crowley is working for Lucifer (and I can totally buy that he is. And why it makes NO SENSE that the boys are even listening to him!!). Equally Crowley could genuinely want Lucifer out of the way. In that case why try and kill Dean? And piss off Sam? *hands* No idea. (yet!)
Did Bobby use the Colt
Ahh - apparently not. Check out
So the rings hold Lucifer, does Crowley really want Lucifer caged or do the rings have some other significance?
That would be interesting. I wondered if Lu knows about the rings and has sent Crowley to retrieve them? And at the same time keep tabs on the Winchesters? It goes with the theory of keeping Sam angry..... Hmmm. I am sincerely hoping "all will be revealed" in the next 2 episodes and I can look back on this one and say.... oh that's why....
And yes to your second to last paragraph. (I can't quote is all here), but yes to all that. Well put. :)
And you're not whining. It's trying to make sense of something we love more than is reasonable and wanting it all to be ok. I do hope Kripke doesn't loose sight of why he has such loyal followers to his show. It's those boys and their relationship. And we can only cope with them being at odds with each other for so long. It would be great to get past all the trust issues etc. and get on with working together to kick some supernatural ass!
*huggles* thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.
*clings* for the future episodes.. <333333
no subject
Date: 2010-05-03 12:35 pm (UTC)Yes, very interesting and maybe they can come up with some solutions to that mission and quests all by themselves next year and not be dragged from pillar to post by one side or another - I'd like that, them working against an antagonist, maybe a linked series of tasks they need to accomplish using their skills and wiles, so fingers crossed most definitely for that. Have to admit being spoiler free and this close to the finale I'm pretty much avoiding all post episode metas and discussions - it's so easy to stumble on a journal that has spoilers in the comments.
And thank you for always having such great discussions and theories that are always open to many ideas and speculations no matter how strange. ♥
no subject
Date: 2010-05-03 12:44 pm (UTC)Yep. Already came across one of those.. *sigh*. Normally I don't mind, but I've been trying really hard to remain unspoiled. Though I'm thinking about spoiling myself for the next one just to be prepared. I'm sooooo scared I'm going to hate it and I just don't want to. I would rather squee about an episode that be down on it.
But chatting has helped. :) I do love nutting it all out. Adds to the fun....
<3333
PS: and united to fight the next big bad would be WONDERFUL... god I hope that happens. I'm sincerely hoping they'll be united in fighting whatever is coming in the final 2 eps. And they give our beautiful boys back their brains... ;)
xx
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 02:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-03 12:26 pm (UTC)Ah, great, thank you, that does make more sense, I really couldn't understand Crowley saying it wouldn't kill him - but, if Bobby was just shooting him with a normal weapon to make himself feel better? Then yep, the line makes more sense and means Crowley is most likely a demon - well to me anyway!
The writers seem to have gone out of their way to make everyone stupid - have the Winchesters actually driven the plot with any sense of their own competency at all this year? I'm sure they must have, but I can't think of one this morning...
no subject
Date: 2010-05-03 12:46 pm (UTC)It was my understanding that Crowley is definitely a demon.. That's what's made me so pissed... why are they even listening to a demon??!!
And I'm certain he has a plan up his sleeve... and not a good one.
<33