Finally had a chance to watch 8.08 :))

[ash48]

Wow, what a mess.

And I don't mean that in a negative way. ;D



Stan: It won't last. You are living in a dream world.
Amelia: I like it here. I like this house. I like Sam.
Stan: Sam is a mess.
Amelia: I'm a mess.....Please. Let us be messes together.

I can't decide if the structure and style of that episode was a mess because of that section of dialogue or because it was just, er...messy.

Let's go with it being messy because that is exactly what this episode was all about. Characters being in a mess. That and the perception of reality.

I consider it a "mess" because it seemed all over the place. It was comedic and dramatic and a little fan-servicey. It was a friggin stir fry of STUFF! The pacing was also weird. But ultimately I found it satisfying because it addressed some of the overall story arc and there were some moments of pure gold.

This show isn't made for the casual viewer is it? (Why I even consider that I don't know...)

It was an episode that embraced the cartoon form and, in someways, was a cartoon and yet explored both Cas and Sam's inner turmoils so was, at the same time, a drama.

No wonder I was left feeling discombobulated. Supernatural is good at doing that.

There were many things I loved, some I puzzled over and some bits I yawned at (but those are purely personal so I'm not going to even address those...)

I have to start by addressing Sam's "dream" world because that was such a revelation and also quite the sucker punch.

After much speculating I think we've finally been given a major part of the puzzle about those flashbacks. There's been a question about whether they are real or not. Personally, I think they are real. I think they've had that dream like quality (soft focus, high saturation) because it's exactly that - a "dream world" that Sam tried to bury himself in. A place that he desperately wanted and needed but in reality it was probably more of a nightmare. Sure, it had ideal moments - picnics in the park, a dog, a house, a gal but really it was a place Sam didn't fit. I really loved how he was filmed in those flashbacks. He looked so big and awkward. They don't usually show Sam as abnormally tall as he is. They didn't shoot around that in these scenes. They made him really standout.

And how awkward were those scenes?! I wanted to leap in there are take Sam away from it all. But they were perfect because it was about seeing the reality. Seeing how out of place Sam was in that world. He was trying so hard to make it work (the fake laughing and the forced smiles almost killed me) but it was never right.

No wonder Sam stayed by Dean's side when he was first talking about not wanting to hunt in episode one. Sam fits into the world when he is hunting and being next to Dean. It's where he belongs and he's beginning to see that in the way that we are. I think it's also why Amelia isn't an easily likeable, clinched "nice" girl. She's troubled and not at all perfect (loved the spaghetti and hotdog dish.../o\). And the same with her father. This "normal" isn't particularly nice or comfortable. It's just real.

I think the flashbacks in this episode gave us more evidence of his world "imploding" and the state of Sam's mind.

I'm sure you've all seen this gif by now:



It's a brilliant moment and I do ponder the significance. I can't tell if this is a deliberate indication that his flashbacks are in his head and never really happened (Lucifer or "other" induced maybe?) or if it's a brilliantly subtle gesture that shows how Sam is feeling at this moment. Personally I think it's the latter. I wouldn't be surprised if Jared himself put that in. It tells us that Sam either feels like he's living in some sort of unreal nightmare or that he needs to ground himself. He's in emotional turmoil and thus turns to the thing that helped in the past. His stone number one. *sniff* IT'S SO FRIGGIN' SAD!!! I FELT SO MUCH PAIN FOR SAM DURING ALL THESE SCENES. WHAT A MESS! /o\ BUT I LOVED IT!

I wonder if it's shortly after this point that Sam left Amelia to head for the cabin as we saw in episode one? He seems to have come to the realisation that he was running away from something (looking for Dean, hunting) and so headed to the cabin to perhaps start on that. Maybe Don being revealed being alive gave Sam the motivation to (finally!) make a start. Though I had the feeling he had lived in that house with her for a while. Hmmmm....difficult to say. The timeline of Sam's year is confusing.

If it turns out that Sam's memories (or anything during that year) have been manipulated it might actually blow my mind. I'm pretty sure it's mostly Sam remembering things the way he wanted to but now he's recalling things as they really were. Again with the perception.

Now to the other stuff (hee...yes. There was other stuff, but I was pretty overwhelmed with all the flashbacks I admit).

In many ways Cas resembled this actual episode because he was both the comic (cartoon) character and the serious (dramatic) character. He lived in the unrealistic world of the hunter (where he didn't really fit) and the very real human world - where he has emotion and remorse. Cas is a mess also and liked the way that mirrored Sam. I wonder if that mix of comic and serious was deliberate to show us how Cas is having trouble "fitting" in. I think I suffered whiplash watching him go from comic "bad cop" to him contemplating suicide. I suppose it's very Castiel though - a mix of characteristics and his search to fit in.

He, like Sam, is also running away. Sam ran away from hunting and looking for Dean and Cas is running away from Heaven and facing what he did there. It's interesting that at the end Cas was ready to return to heaven but was thwarted by a higher power. It looked like Sam was ready to face up to what he needs to do also - I wonder if he was somehow thwarted also? Hard to know at the moment. I think there is still more to be revealed. (see...told ya it was a mess! A good mess though).

It took a while to get the point about the cartoon MoTW. Initially I was a little worried because Show continues to make light of death. Deaths became comedy and it made me squirm a bit. Of course, by the end I could see the relevance and actually it was pretty darn clever. It was a massive anvil of course (particularly taking Sam and Cas into Fred's head so they could talk about reality) but the fact that they literally dropped anvils made it totally acceptable and hilarious.

Of all the cartoon moments it was the exploding cake that well, took the cake. Show loves the blood splatters - it's become a signature. I love the way they played with that by making the cake look like blood and guts splatter. I thought it WAS blood and guts and thought they had gone too far. I thought to myself...if they don't take these deaths seriously now I am turing this off! Instead it was cake and therefore clever. :))

I loved how many times Sam smiled at Dean's quips. There's definitely growing sense of being comfortable together again. I'm not sure what to make of that yet because I think there's still so much under the surface. I'm still struggling with them not addressing that big possessed!Dean rant, but it looks like I have to just accept it as it is. Maybe it will surface again later.

I didn't even really mind Cas hunting with them (shock! I know!). I wouldn't want that to be a permanent arrangement but I liked the way the addressed having "a third wheel". And yay fighting over the front seat and braiding Sam's hair etc. There were some classic one liners that's for sure.

I think the idea of a cartoon world, with cartoon deaths was very cool. Maybe not as deftly handled as it could have been but nevertheless quirky enough to be interesting.

Seeing Mike Farrell as Fred (BJ from MASH) looking so old was weird (made me feel extra old!) I wondered what had happened to him. Nice to see him turn up in my show. :)

Also.... SAM'S HAIR!! OMG! *swoon*

And were they both sporting matching stubble in that one? Hee...

Overall it was very satisfying. Weird, but satisfying. Getting more of Sam's story was great and I like the way they have been teasing it out. It's interesting that Dean seems to be rather well adjusted at the moment. I'm not sure if it's because the focus is off of him (like Sam in previous episodes) and so they are not showing it to us or whether Dean has genuinely moved on. Cas being alive might indeed be what he needed to lift some of his angst.

I am sure there's heaps more to come on that. I can't wait!



Geek moment: I do need to mention that there was a HEAP of prop re-use in that episode. I am particularly fascinated by the, um, teardrop shaped art work. The top one is a martini glass and the bottom one is a lighthouse (I think!). Looks like they picked up a few classic pieces from... somewhere. Hee...so kitsch. I rather love 'em.


8.05




8.08

The painting is from Blood Brother (and from Slash Fiction), the bulb lamp is from Blood Brother (and from Yellow Fever), the bed head is from so many eps I can't list them all and the bedspreads... man, they look familiar but I can't place them (?). They are similar to the ones in Changing Channels, but not the same. /geek

Comments

[alienat.livejournal.com]

I can only nod and agree with everything you said. Once again you did it so much more eloquent than I did. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Aww, thank you hun. I think I write far too much but I had lots of thoughts about this one. ;)

Oooh and speaking of eloquent - reminds me to leave a comment on a fic of yours I just finished. :))

[elsewhere91.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to get really confused about Sam's flashbacks. At first i was 100% sure that the flashbacks were real but as we get more and more Sam's flashbacks i've become 50% certain they are real and what we are seeing is what we're getting and 50% that something more is going on. I mean there are either so many coincedences (if they are real)or mirrors of reality (if they aren't) in the flashbacks: Amelia drinking like Dean and being like Dean, Don and Dean's name sound familair, Sam and Amelia have the same stories, Don is alive and Dean is alive, Amelia's dad opening up beer bottles like Dean and loads more.

I'm so confused but i love how this season is making me think. I just think i'm starting to worry that we're not going to get a clear explanation about what happened to Sam to not search for his brother - yes he said his world imploded but i want more of an explanation either shown through a flashback or just a conversation with Dean about what happened (my personal theory is that Sam had a breakdown but it's probably wrong)


There are so many questions that need answering and i'm excited and there is so much potential this season but i'm also worried that we won't get the answers or that everything will be glossed over.

I did like this episode better than the previous one so \o/ and i agree with you There were many things I loved, some I puzzled over and some bits I yawned at

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I have a feeling it's either much more complicated than what we are seeing or it's as simple as ...this is it. I think they are using all those things (the beer bottle opening etc.) as just a way to work in the dialogue and make connections to what Sam is going through. I might be wrong of course - there might be something other going on but I have a feeling that it's all about Sam burying himself in this dreamworld (so many references to that in this episode) in order to cope with his loss. Not sure I buy that but until see get the rest I will hold on.

I certainly hope there's still more to Sam's year. There feels like there has to be because there are still so many questions to be answered. My hope is that by 8.10 we have something more concrete.

I'm so confused but i love how this season is making me think

Yeah - I think that might be my favourite thing so far. Lot's of thinkies! And some awesome chat.

I certainly preferred it to the last ep but I confess there were moments I was starting to worry...just a wee bit. ;)

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

To me it felt like the case was filler to getting Sam's story through his flashbacks.

Still can't figure how it's going to play out, though.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...yeah. Sam's flashbacks were certainly the main attraction and the MotW supported that. Cas too I think.

Hee...which means I didn't need to write all that up actually. Perhaps you said it all in I sentence. :)

I too have no idea how they are going to play this all out - I do hope they have a master plan.

[galathea-snb.livejournal.com]

I can't tell if this is a deliberate indication that his flashbacks are in his head and never really happened (Lucifer or "other" induced maybe?) or if it's a brilliantly subtle gesture that shows how Sam is feeling at this moment.

I agree, Sam touching his hand in that manner was a rather brilliant and exciting moment. ♥ Also, the fact that they constantly emphasised during the flashbacks how messy Sam and Amelia's shared life is reminded me of Hello, Cruel World, where Hallucifer told Sam that his hallucinations had to be a mess or Sam wouldn’t believe that it was his life. Man, I would be really thrilled if the Sam/Amelia storyline would link back to Sam's hallucinations in S7, but somehow I doubt it will. I mean, there is enough evidence that Amelia is in fact real, so I think the writers simply want to torture us with all that potential. /sigh

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes yes. I don't think they are going to be linking this to Lucifer but maybe they are drawing parallels because all this is about what's happening in Sam's mind.

Though...

where Hallucifer told Sam that his hallucinations had to be a mess or Sam wouldn’t believe that it was his life.

is great. I think I'd friggin' DIE if they brought in Sam's hallucinations. I was never satisfied with that resolution so revisiting that would be awesomesauce. Even getting this little connection was pretty darn exciting.

xx

[zestyzorra.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, I didn't even catch Sam rubbing his hand! Thanks for pointing it out, that makes the episode even MORE awesome for me. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's pretty cool isn't it?! The ep certainly had moments of awesomeness. :)

[maenad.livejournal.com]

This show isn't made for the casual viewer is it? (Why I even consider that I don't know...)

Ha! It always amuses me when they do extended 'previouslys'. So there are demons! And angels! And then the world nearly ended! And then it nearly ended again! And Sam and Dean have issues! But then they resolved them! But then more issues! Then death! Then alive again! Then dead again!

I suspect they just make potential new viewers dizzy. :)

It's a brilliant moment and I do ponder the significance. I can't tell if this is a deliberate indication that his flashbacks are in his head and never really happened (Lucifer or "other" induced maybe?) or if it's a brilliantly subtle gesture that shows how Sam is feeling at this moment.

I hadn't seriously considered the idea that Sam's time with Amelia was a hallucination until this one. As it stands - I don't know. Amelia seems real enough, but that could be a question of perception; Lucifer-as-Dean initially seemed real enough. The character parallels are uncanny, but that is the way character parallels work. Sam's forever making friends with monsters who parrot his own words back to him - a remarkable coincidence, if not for the whole 'thematic purposes' thing.

Whatever is going on, it is at least clear that Sam is not as stable and happy in his new life as he's been claiming he was. And I like that we do seem to finally be edging towards some genuine conflict and drama in his story - maybe even some answers! :)

I think I suffered whiplash watching him go from comic "bad cop" to him contemplating suicide. I suppose it's very Castiel though - a mix of characteristics and his search to fit in.

I admit I get a bit twitchy about Castiel's continued inability to get human social interaction, when every other angel ever seems to manage it. If it were something he were incapable of doing that would be one thing, but in The End he was cynical, witty and manipulative, so ...

I mean, I get that it was for comedic purposes so it's not like I spent the whole episode seething, but I like my heroes smart, so if he's going to stay I really hope they minimise the mortifying social gaffes.

Initially I was a little worried because Show continues to make light of death. Deaths became comedy and it made me squirm a bit. Of course, by the end I could see the relevance and actually it was pretty darn clever.

I did like the way the sheer absurdity of the cartoon element cycled back around to taking death seriously again. A cartoon death is only funny because it doesn't look real. And yet (at least in some cartoons) it is real. And if you're ignoring it because you'd rather not see that ... it is clever. :)

Seeing Mike Farrell as Fred (BJ from MASH) looking so old was weird (made me feel extra old!) I wondered what had happened to him. Nice to see him turn up in my show. :)

It was a fantastic use, I think. The story about burned-out hunters/tragic war veterans practically begged for a MASH character. Granted, the whole 'My PTSD is reaching epic proportions because the Korean War is in some kind of time loop and I should have been discharged seven years ago!' thing was more Hawkeye's issue, but I hate to think what Alan Alda costs these days. :)

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

*butts in*

I have to say that this,

"Ha! It always amuses me when they do extended 'previouslys'. So there are demons! And angels! And then the world nearly ended! And then it nearly ended again! And Sam and Dean have issues! But then they resolved them! But then more issues! Then death! Then alive again! Then dead again!"

Is kinda a lol'ly, brilliant way of describing this show in a short paragraph. You win!

Also, thank you for this as well,

"The story about burned-out hunters/tragic war veterans practically begged for a MASH character. Granted, the whole 'My PTSD is reaching epic proportions because the Korean War is in some kind of time loop and I should have been discharged seven years ago!' thing was more Hawkeye's issue, but I hate to think what Alan Alda costs these days. "

I had similar thoughts about the comparison between Sam & Dean's PTSD and Hawkeye's and BJ's (and the other MASHer's) PTSD. And wouldn't it have been cool if they could have somehow had both Alan and Mike somehow in this ep?

[maaldas.livejournal.com]

First, I am very sorry for ranting Ash48,

Honestly, I am feeling like I am watching different show and not Supernatural. I hope Amelia go away with her seemingly undead husband and never appear again. The way Sam's flashback is presented is jaundice and stunted and dragging down the narrative of the story. Sam's traipsing down memory lane during an investigation? How can that be sane? If you're a real police and you spazz out too much you'll jeopardize innocent live for sure.

Some people think they get something from Sam's FB but honestly I don't get anything. We don't get to see what is it that they talk about when they are talking. Are they really talking? How can that be said as fleshing out a story or even a character? I don't see any private moment when Sam is remembering Dean in previous FBs. Only recent episode when Amelia's dad opens a beer for him that Sam said about Dean. And what the hell is with that? A bartender in a bar opens beer bottle for their costumer all the time and I am sure many people do that to someone they offer a beer to. It's just polite. Now, IF the dad opens it with his ring, NOW THAT'S Dean's signature.

Where is the sign that Sam's world is imploded? Nowhere. Okay, Sam is rubbing his hand but we just see it now? If the writers really are being serious of writing Sam running away they could very well make Sam running away to India or China. As long as he still lives in America there are tons of things that will remind him of Dean. We don't have another Dad to reminds Sam of Dean. For example, When Sam was watching TV in motel with Amelia then there's an old cowboy movie he then quickly change the channel because he remembers Dean loves that old movies. When Amelia brought home pie, Sam will flip or just leaves the room or something because he the pie reminds him too much of Dean. Or maybe when Amelia calls him jerk or any other name Sam will freeze and spaz out remembering Dean. But I don't see it in how many scenes of FBs.

I am very sorry that I have to disagree with you because I don't see Sam grieving at all, We don't privy to these supposed talks he supposed to have with Amelia. Does he even has these talks or not? Again the writers fail to incorporate that in their way of narrating Sam's story. If these flashbacks turn out to be real then why would they drag it on and on and on until 8 episode? IKWYDLS in S4 utilize flashback better in only one episode than these FBs. And I thought that IKWYDLS was disservice because it was only one. But it turns out when they drag it down like these it doesn't serve anything other than ruining the flow of the narrative. If these flashbacks are turning out to be real and no twist behind it then I am calling it bad sloppy writing. I am not a good writer but I know there are good writers here in LJ that can write better. I am getting whiplash in seeing different Sam's personality and characterization in different episodes and these flashbacks for a whole storyline don't serve anything to move forward the plot.

For a whole 8 episodes of storytelling, Sam's flashbacks don't reveal anything. It could have been done in one episode with scenes fastforwarding in quick succession how Sam revert to desperation and maybe suicidal (alluding to Heartache) then meeting a mess woman on the way to his downward path of despair holding on together. Done. All FBs in 8 episodes encompassed in One Sam centric episode.

Not to mention that I can't reconcile Sam's speech to Dean in Heartache with these FBs. Sam says, "I have someting that I never had before and I want that.", "When this is all over I am done. I want normal life. I want to go back to that normal I had before." I mean really? Now that i know how fucked up Sam's "normal" is Sam wants to go back to that? What? Being a home wrecker? Being a mess with a woman who is a mess? How is it different with being a mess together with Dean? He is Sam's flesh and blood brother. The one that will sacrifice his life in a heartbeat to save Sam's. Will Amelia even consider to die for Sam?

[maaldas.livejournal.com]

Also in episode one Dean said "Hey the rule is simple. Don't take a joint from a guy named Don and no dogs in the car!"

That's supposed to be Dean's life rules kinda things, meaning Sam must have heard that many times during their growing up. Now that Don has returned and Sam has taken a 'joint/wife' from him he should have remembered Dean's rule. What's that said about foreshadowing?

Sorry again Ash48. I hope you don't get peeved with my comment on your post. I'll delete it if it bothers you. It's good that these FBs work for you. To me they are not. Unless Carver hid a knife behind his back, I'd love to get stabbed and twisted by it. :D

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

While as usual I enjoyed this episode and noticed the things going on on a more emotional level the only actual thought I could come up with was: the situation and lifes of all three of them is as bizzare as reality in cartoons.

;)

Lol, I just made an attempt to write some thoughts about this ep but got my thoughts tangled up in a mess. *g* I better just stick to reading your post on this one. LOL.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

the situation and lifes of all three of them is as bizzare as reality in cartoons.

Agreed! I actually think they were playing with that idea a bit actually. Their lives are weird...

Oh and I would have loved to have read your thoughts. Hee...mine are a mess also! :))

(and I'm glad you liked the koala...*hugs* and happy birthday again. And double yay your son remembering...\o/

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

Awesome review. I noticed too how large they made Sam look, so out of place, in the flashbacks. I don’t think it was coincidence that the actor they chose to play Amelia’s father was short. It just emphasized Sam’s size. I think you’re right that it was kind of a nightmare – Amelia isn’t some sweet ideal girl like Jess was, that spaghetti and hotdog concoction, ew, even Sam who didn’t grow up with a mom to cook for him looked askance at it, lol, and yes, the flashbacks made me so uncomfortable. It makes me wonder about the ppl saying that they want Sam and Amelia together because I have to wonder what they are getting out of these flashback scenes.
Sam rubbing the scar on his palm was just a wonderful hint about his state of mind. I wonder too if that isn’t his connection to Dean, you know? Dean has always been his security and stability, and that scar is a touchstone. It grounds him.
Oh that’s brilliant – Cas running from his reality in Heaven the way Sam ran from reality with Amelia. Yes!
Sam and Dean do seem to be falling back into place together, but I think that’s inevitable, and it doesn’t mean that they aren’t still at odds on some things. It’s just that they’ve spent the majority of their lives together. They fit together. They have a rhythm and unspoken understanding. That doesn’t mean that they won’t blow up again at the slightest provocation. They have such deep personal as well as interpersonal issues; it’s bound to happen.
Great review. It brought some of my own thoughts together more clearly.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks! :)

As much as really like what they have been doing with Sam and Amelia is certainly doesn't seem like a match made in heaven.

I wonder too if that isn’t his connection to Dean, you know?

Oh indeed. I think it's totally a connection - his stone number one. That's why it's so, so sad.

I am sure we are in for more blow ups - there's still a lot that hasn't been addressed. I'm really looking forward to seeing what they are going to do with it.

I'm glad the review made some sense! :DD

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Love your reviews and observations. Thank you for taking the time to share them.

Side note on the hotel room geekiness: I am in love with the light fixture in the 2nd photo. I've watched this ep twice now (once alone and then with hubby) and each time that light fixture appears, I kinda want it. I'm in a bit of a mid-century mood these days.

As I mentioned above, I've watched this with my husband - he lol'd for real at some of the Cas third-wheel moments. He also commented that he thought the MOTW concept was a bit ... ridiculous ... at first. But later he thought it was interesting.

I'm middle of the road on this ep. Certainly did not hate it and was not bored nor frustrated. I basically enjoyed it, but did not squee over it - although one small squee moment was Sam & Dean shouting "No" in sync when Cas asked to sit in the front. I smiled.

I had not caught the sam-hand-rubbing moment myself but did quickly hear/see it online. Very nice subtle acting/directing/whatever choice. I also don't think the Sam & Amelia bits are truly a dream (I think Carver and/or others have actually said that at some point in interviews?) But they are meant to be shown as being dreamlike in the sense of being in a fog after extreme tragedy as well as in an environment so vastly different from what he's known most of his life.

I have found myself wondering at the fact that all the (somewhat anvil-like) parallels show is making about Amelia losing Don and Sam losing Dean are being somewhat ignored by fandom. So much of fandom is so centered on Sam not looking for Dean, Sam being OOO, no brother moments, Cas vs Sam, etc.; that it seems like the fact that the show is trying to compare the extreme tragedy and loss of Amelia's *HUSBAND* (her significant other) to Sam's *BROTHER* (and *his* significant other), is not satisfying to brother fans.

It's weird that this comparison is somehow both anvil-like as well as ... subtle ? Not sure that's the right word or not. Perhaps we are all too used to seeing Sam or Dean fall completely apart on screen when they lose each other. This non-visibly portrayed "falling apart" throws us? I think Carver/others may have even commented about this in interviews.

Very rambly comment response. Stream of consciousness - which is why I like your reviews - they start me thinking.

:)

Edit - I should add that I had the same thoughts/reactions as you regarding Mike Farrell. Loved BJ/Mike in MASH. And yes, seeing him so old made me realize how long ago that show had been on. And made me go, wow, I'm old. lol.

And more: Yes! I also remembered thinking that Sam seemed very LARGE in those early flashbacks. I had never considered that it was a purposeful choice the show may have been making. Very interesting thought.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. :))

I totally love that light fixture! It's a new one too - never used before. I adore stuff like that.

And I'm with you on the reaction. It was a little too all over the place for me to really love it. Some bits were great though - especially some of the one liners and the flashbacks.

And yeah - I don't see the flashbacks as an actual dream, but rather the notion of a "dream world". The fact that it was actually said confirmed that I think. Also I loved the reference to stuff being in Sam's head.

I have found myself wondering at the fact that all the (somewhat anvil-like) parallels show is making about Amelia losing Don and Sam losing Dean are being somewhat ignored by fandom.

I think this is a really good point and why, ultimately, fans are going to be disappointed. They (including me to some extent) want Sam not looking to be so much more than him just having a melt down and escaping into his dreamworld. But I absolutely don't think the (romantic) parallels should be ignored. It's pretty huge that Sam equates his loss to Amelia's loss. The more I see the more I'm liking what they are doing. Admittedly I'd love to see more of "imploded" Sam. I'd really like to see what that looked like - but I think we have to take it from what he ended up doing. That will satisfy me more when the boys actually talk about it. I'm assuming Sam has learned from past experiences. And then there's the running away - again. I think is going to play a big part in Sam's character development in future episodes (well, I hope so).

Glad the review got you thinking! I love chatting about it so thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. <33

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

As per usual, I loved your meta! I noted how damned tall Sam looked in his flashbacks too, but I never equated it to his raging out-of-placeness. I'm sure that was deliberate because usually, Show tries to downplay Jared's height (it's gotta be a pain in the ass to get everyone in-scene.)

I don't think Show is done milking the brotherly friction yet, so we may not get 'talking' and 'resolution' until then. Certainly, there's the Benny thing still hanging in mid-air that will get airplay next episode.

Not much else to say but WELL DONE, m'dear! Always a pleasure to read you.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

I'm glad it wasn't just me that noticed how tall Sam looked. It made him look so out of place and extra awkward. It was clever filming I thought.

And yeah - I'm certain there will be more friction to come. I think Benny will definitely bring that about. And as much as it's hard to watch them argue it always demonstrates their incredible love and devotion to each other. I'm really looking forward to the next ep.

And thanks! I'm so glad what I've said makes some sense. ;)
xx

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

I love reading your comments as always but I am especially glad that you posted that gif. I did not even catch that. (And is it the same hand as the stone number one injury? I keep thinking that he is rubbing his left hand but that the injury is on the right and, oh good grief, now I'm gonna have to go watch and see)

Cause, yeah, I've been on the fence lately about Sam's flashbacks and his year. Sure, I've felt there there has been something off with them the whole time. I think we're meant to feel that something is off because they are always rather surreal and, sometimes, jarring compared to what is going on in the main story. But whether they are "real" or not has me wildly speculating all sorts of things. I "feel" that Amelia is real. I'm just not sure that anything else associated with her is. Most of this is because I am watching with a newly addicted friend and we just re-watched "Dream a little Dream of Me" and "Mystery Spot" The whole picnic scene with Lisa in the first one really gets me going and the fact that Gabriel's make believe wife in that universe of endless Tuesdays was named "Amelia" makes me wonder even further. Once you start down that road everything is fair game.

Now, I haven't re-watched very many but I have noticed, correct me if I am wrong, that, apart from the initial flashback in the vet office when Sam first meets Amelia, every other flashback with the two of them has been just the two of them, and the dog, alone. I find it strange and possibly more than coincidental that, in the first flashback where we have a third party, her father, we also have the phone call that "Don" is alive. Maybe all the speculation has me seeing connections and strangeness that just isn't really there. But I'll forgive myself for reading in to it because this is Supernatural and I've been conditioned to think there is always more than meets the eye in any given situation.

So, I've considered, and mostly discarded, that she's not even real. Again, she feels real. What is murky to me is Sam's memory of her. I've considered that his relationship with her is all made up in his mind and that it is messy and complicated because he is a mess. That there truly is no relationship and that intervention of a third party, in the form of her "father" is beginning of that push he needed to leave his particular dream world. Don (Dean) is alive. And that hearkens back to the first episode where I couldn't decide if Sam knew Dean was at that cabin or not once mention was made of all the disconnected phones. He didn't seem surprised to see Dean considering that he thought he was dead. The mysterious figure watching Sam leave could also play into this third party intervention. Sam's comment that "there was a girl. And then there wasn't" combined with how he just up and left her in the dead of night is also intriguing when considering this train of thought.

However, his comment that he "had something he'd never had before" ..or something to that affect...does not. I don't know how to take this comment because I can't decide what he feels he had during that year that he hadn't had before?

I've also considered that, like Dean's misperception of the purgatory escape, that maybe he did meet this girl but that she isn't nearly as broken as he made her to be and that their relationship ended because of this and also maybe because her husband came back into the picture.

I'm probably in the minority in that I don't want Sam to have abandoned this relationship or life, even if it is all a dream, simply because of Dean's return or even because he decided to start looking for Dean. I think it needs to be specific to Sam or to this relationship alone, whether that be because one or both of them realize that their feelings are forged in a shared experience of grief and pain and will never be more than this, or due to the return of the lost husband, or that Sam realizes on his own that it is time to stop running, or even that Sam realizes either own his on or by nudging intervention that he is living in a "dream" world. Don't get me wrong. I am a sucker for the epic bromo as much as the next person. I just don't really want their motivation in everything to always be about the other.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks! :)

And is it the same hand as the stone number one injury?

You know, I've been too scared to check. I really REALLY hope it is. If it's not then my feeling is that it was just a quirk of Jared's (or they forgot which hand it was!)

I find it strange and possibly more than coincidental that, in the first flashback where we have a third party, her father, we also have the phone call that "Don" is alive.

It's a difficult one to read I think. It's also the first time we've had Amelia's POV, with we had shots of her talking to her dad. I had thought that if we only ever got Sam's POV (which we have until now) then there might be something to the idea that he's "imagining" it - or that they are somehow manipulated. But I think this flashback rings more true and Sam meeting Stan was probably a big turning point in Sam's journey.

I think the mysteries of the man outside, Sam going to the cabin and not being completely shocked or surprised, and some of Sam's early dialogue is intriguing. I am assuming these will be addressed in future episodes (they better! *g*)

I'm probably in the minority in that I don't want Sam to have abandoned this relationship or life, even if it is all a dream, simply because of Dean's return or even because he decided to start looking for Dean

Oh yeah...this is a tricky one. In the beginning I was quite sad that Sam had to return to hunting after finding something he was after (or so we thought). It really did feel like he didn't want to be there. Their relationship is totally co-dependent and it's certainly not healthy (I love it though). I am wondering (and maybe hoping) that some of that co-dependence is addressed this season. It looked like they were heading that way. In fact, each episode looks like they are heading in a certain direction and then...bam...it changes direction. It's been hard to follow, but still interesting.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :))

[zebra363.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the gif. I didn't notice that and am adding it to the transcript!

This show isn't made for the casual viewer is it?

I love that it isn't (though it may not help the ratings!). It makes it so much richer than shows you can pick up at any point. I cheer every time they do a call-back to long ago (and wince whenever they contradict themselves).

I was too hard on this episode — it's actually pretty good!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey!

The gif is great. I didn't notice it either and I can't really decide if it was there deliberately. I can only assume it was because it happened and when filming an actor as to do the same thing over a couple of times so it must have been considered.

I'm sure the ratings do suffer from not having casual watchers but for us die hard fans it makes the viewing so much more intimate and personal. It's why I can't actually watch it casually.

I was too hard on this episode — it's actually pretty good!

It had a lot of good stuff going on. It was just a bit all over the place and seemed to have a lot going on. By the end I liked it, but half way through I was doing a bit of grumbling I have to say.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

it's a brilliantly subtle gesture that shows how Sam is feeling at this moment. Personally I think it's the latter.I wouldn't be surprised if Jared himself put that in.

The way the scene is lighted makes me think it's intentional and planned. Sam is in the shadow, his hand and the Dad are fully lighted.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh...good point. Usually if they want to make us notice something they give us a close up or the character will make some reference to it. I didn't actually notice this on the first watch. I'm hoping it really was deliberate and they were being subtle because it might come into play later on...;)

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I spent a lot of the motel time trying to figure out if they were in the same motel room because there was so much reuse. The art over the other bed was used in a couple of places. One I think was when Cas destroys the campaign office. There were 2 tear drop arts in 8.05. There was reuse of stuff at the nursing home too but I couldn't remember from where.

Sam looked so awkward, Cas was so awkward. The anvils were hilarious. The violence reminded me of Mystery Spot where a couple of Dean's deaths were played for laughs but the overall effect was horror. I was really surprised they had that guy shoot himself at the end.

I've been saying all along that the colors and light in the Amelia world look a lot like times when SPN has used a dream world. I think Amelia is real but I think Sam remembers what he wants to. I have to wonder if Sam went to find that bartender or Jess, in a way. The people that Sam conjures up to talk to him are never the nicest, even when he brings Dean into his head. Amelia's Dad is like somebody with a laundry list of what Sam thinks about himself and what he thought John thought about him. Sam's head is a sad place to be.

As for Don, I knew he wasn't dead. It's all really hinky. Where's he been for a year, walking around with no soul, possessed, a zombie, or something more legit like a POW? It's too much a parallel with what happened to Dean. I also wouldn't be surprised at all to find out Sam was living in a halfway house for the mentally ill. I've said from the beginning that he was a psychiatric mess. I totally understood why he didn't look for Dean if he didn't. I'm still wondering what Sam found that he never had. Did he find anything at all?

Dang, he looked good in the flashbacks, though. And the Destiel crew got Cas saying he would just watch over Dean for those 4 hours he slept. Straight out of fanfic somewhere......

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I spent a lot of the motel time trying to figure out if they were in the same motel room

Ha! Me too...I actually went back to see if they were the same but the curtains are different and the room divider.

I was really surprised they had that guy shoot himself at the end.

Yeah. And I was surprised how cooly Dean took it. But I suppose after everything he'd been through another death means little.

Amelia's Dad is like somebody with a laundry list of what Sam thinks about himself and what he thought John thought about him. Sam's head is a sad place to be.

Oh god yes. It's what made those scenes so hard to watch and so sad. I kept thinking "this is the man who saved the world" and here he was being put down.

The parallels between Don and Dean are certainly there and it's a great question about where Don has been.

I also wouldn't be surprised at all to find out Sam was living in a halfway house for the mentally ill.

Can I say I'm secretly hoping for this.

I'm still wondering what Sam found that he never had. Did he find anything at all?

Another good question. That line never did ring true. I'm wondering if Sam just thinks he found something Something he needed at the time but now it, looking back, it's not looking so shiny.

SAM LOOKED AWESOME IN THOSE FLASHBACKS! \o/

And er..yeah...I'm sure lots of Destiel fans were in their happy place. I was hanging on trying not to stress out too much. Luckily it didn't go toooooo far...;)

xox

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I was rather happily convinced that Sam's 'dream world' was just that, not real, but now I'm steeling myself to accept that it probably is. I'm disappointed, because the alternative seemed to have so much potential, and because it will be hard for me to accept so many coincidences (Dean-Don, picnic!Lisa-picnic!Amelia, etc). That said, I do really like that once again the parallel relationship for Sam and Dean is a romantic couple. :)

Other than my disappointment over the reality-unreality thing, I actually really liked this episode. I'm not a huge Cas fan, but I enjoyed his awkwardness here and laughed out loud a few times. He didn't seem to come between Sam and Dean here, but rather to complement them and comment on them almost in an outside pov way. And the exploding cake was awesome :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

but now I'm steeling myself to accept that it probably is.

Yeah...it's what I came to realise a while back and it's a bitte pill to swallow I think because I think it's so hard to imagine Sam just not looking for Dean. I still hold out hope that there is more to that part of the story but I think what we are seeing really happened.

I think all the parallels are there to show just how much Sam and Dean are connected. And Dean being compared to Don (as Amelia's HUSBAND) is awesome. So damn romantic.

He didn't seem to come between Sam and Dean here, but rather to complement them and comment on them almost in an outside pov way.

Yeah. I liked that about it too. Cas being there brought about some lovely moments between the boys. Lots of looks of understanding. I loved it when Cas got it wrong about the dead body and Sam was right and Dean was all smug about it. He looked proud of Sam - as if to say...see! There's a hunter who knows what he's doing...;)

xox

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Why does it look like a cock and balls?

Ha! Of course I will never be able to look at that again without thinking of that. :))

What if Dean is under Benny's influence? They shared blood!

Wow...I never thought of that. Though did they actually share blood? Hmmm....interesting.

Am I reading too much into this show?

Don't we all? I think we hope for things and look for clues that they might be happening. I remember all the speculation about what John whispered to Dean in IMToD. When it was reveal that it was an order to kill Sam is he couldn't save him everyone seemed disappointed. And yet letter it proved to be such an amazing thing to ask of Dean. it because a catalyst for so much angst.

I'm thinking we have that sort of thing happening now. Fans may be disappointed initially but I'm sure there will be lasting ramifications of what ever is going on....

(what's that you say about over thinking? :DD)

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Show is really drawing me in now with these flashbacks of Sam's. I thought Dean's were going to be the wow factor ones and I was going to grit my teeth to get through Sam's, but not so. As soon as Dean got out of Purgatory they lost their relevance, but Sam's is still a HUGE puzzle that we're trying to figure out - which I love! And also, I can't help wondering - Don-Dean is alive- is back? Some weird fanatsy feed/coma connection?? I have no idea but that thumb press of Jared's *has* to be deliberate, he has been so nuanced this season.

Fabulous review, love. Was the first one I sought out once I'd watched the episode this morning:)))

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun

Thank you. It's lovely to hear your sort out this after you watched. <3

Sam's flashbacks are so intriguing. I can't if what we are seeing is all truth or part truth and part what Sam thinks is true. We know Dean didn't see everything as it happened (we are lead to believe at this point anyway) so it's probably fair to assume Sam is mixed up in what he remembers.

The Don-Dean connection is quite something isn't it? As weird and messy as this season seems (so far) it really is about Sam and Dean's relationship. I hope there is a lot more to come on that front. ;)

[ayane42.livejournal.com]

Hi!!! I wanted to say that I'm so glad that I found you!

My friends list mostly consist of people that swear they aren't going to watch SPN anymore because of Sam not looking for Dean while he was in purgatory. And that makes me sad.

I found a link to your original post showing all the screenshots and your theory about what you think is happening and wow, I think that your really awesome that you put that together!

As I recall Sam's left hand was the one that he injured and used to get Satan to back off. So that catch was really telling.

Considering that I felt awkward with Sam and his flashbacks to Amelia and that the writers and directors probably intended that I know that something is going on. And after the introduction of Naomi and her weird wanting to check up on Cas and Sam and Dean, but leaving no memory of their meetings, I can't believe that isn't something that's going on with Sam.

Especially after Cas revealed to Dean what really happened when Dean left purgatory, perception is really important here.

Martin Greaser left the institution a month ago.....isn't that about how long Sam and Dean have been together again?

Spaghetti and hot dogs? Isn't that something that Dean made for Sam when they were kids? Or I've read too many Weechester fanfic.... I felt like that was an important thing, especially when Amelia's dad opened beer like Dean.

All that talk from Sam to Fred Jones about living in a dream world....that was weird, like was Sam talking about himself but he didn't realize it.

I can't imagine that the Supernatural crew doesn't know what they are doing. They have an arc for the season. They have to play out each chapter(episode) giving clues as they go... a little reveal with Naomi, but they have this week's episode coming up and then we have like 6 weeks? over Christmas, so there's gonna be some kind of cliffhanger.

I'm gonna add you as a friend so I can keep up with your thoughts on this :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi! Thanks! Lots of people have been turned off by this season and it is disappointing. I'll admit there are moments that are hard going. Sam not looking for Dean is a major stress but I think they are making a big enough deal about it that it's important. I keep hanging on for it all to be revealed. :)

I'm not sure where I sit with how manipulated Sam's memories are. My crackish meta was a way off looking for evidence to that theory and even though there seems to be quite a bit I'm not too sure if they are going to be going in that direction. But there is certainly potential.


Hee... I think that spaghetti and hot dogs might be from fanfic. Dean made sam spaghettieos (not sure how to spell that) I think. I think that moment was all about Amelia not being this "dream" gal after all. That dish was pretty hideous and I think it made Sam look even more uncomfortable in this flashback.

that was weird, like was Sam talking about himself but he didn't realize it.

See, I think Sam did realise it. That's why he was having these flashbacks now. He connected what Fred was going through with what he had been through. He lived this "dream" type of existence. He tired to make it "real" but it just didn't work.

I believe they know what they are doing also. I am sure the season has been planned out and we have lots more reveals yet.

and yay! friend away. <3