(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I almost went with the "it will clearly never happen" choice. Basically if anyone could host such a discussion and keep it as reasonable as that subject could be, it would be you.

Destiel is a hot button topic for me. Actually after the last wank around it, I'm a lot more mellow about it than I used to be after seeing everyone go a little batshit crazy around the subject. And that is the very problem I have about the subject, I am unhappy about how much it seems to have driven this "great divide" in fandom. Yes there has always be versus wank prior to Dean/Cas. But the Destielers pushing/thinking it could be actual canon, to me, seems to have driven a much deeper wedge in fandom. And that saddens and angers me. And up until this subject, I've never really gotten hot under the collar about anything fan related. (I think, perhaps I've blanked it from my mind.)

Don't get me wrong I like Cas. And I like the bond between Dean and Cas. And I wish there were more Cas and Sam bonding going on. And I lol a little bit about how all the versus wank seems to be always about "who gets Dean!" lol. But these OTPs are fanon and shouldn't be canon. And yes there's a little bit of butthurt Sam/Dean OTP speaking here. Not of the wincest variety; but of the "show is and always shall be" about the brothers.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Destiel is a hot button topic for me.

Any for many I think. :)

And pretty much yes to all this for me also. I've been thinking about my general frustration towards Cas recently (and it's been growing for the last couple of years) and I think a lot of it boils down to how divisive the character has been in the fandom. I mean, I get it and I like that there are fans who enjoy the show because that exists for them but it has also created such a level of nastiness that it ends up reflecting on the character.

I'm trying for it not to because I don't want the show (or character) spoiled because of what's happened outside of the actual episodes. In some ways discussing this helps (the same way you said you're a little more mellow after seeing everyone go batshit crazy). Teasing the argument out and getting to the actual point of why this is happening helps me a little.

What I come away with is..each to their own. Nothing has changed. It's extremely unlikely they've even considered making D/C canon. I don't think it excuses them constantly teasing the audience with it though (and even though we can say "but they're just got a good male bond, there's no denying they plant suggestions all the damn time. Though less these last years I think). I'd like to see them drop that completely and stick to showing us a genuine friendship (like they did very successfully with Dean and Benny).

xox

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

This-->"I think a lot of it boils down to how divisive the character has been in the fandom. I mean, I get it and I like that there are fans who enjoy the show because that exists for them but it has also created such a level of nastiness that it ends up reflecting on the character. "

I've had this discussion with another friend. And it was the last wank that I referred to that I hope may have finally gotten me past this bleed-over feeling into both Cas and Misha both. I think the whole thing has gotten so overblown and ridiculous that it's become almost white noise now to me. I'm hoping this will continue for me so I can get back to liking both Cas and Misha as much as I used to.

I really agree with what someone else here said about just letting men express themselves without reading "sex!" into it (in canon that is; we can do the sex part in fanfic. lol.) It's been watching the Js over the years that has made me realize just how much parts of western culture has taken away from men's abilities to just really enjoy each others company. And yes love each other. It doesn't have to mean sex or romance.

Also I don't particularly like romance stories in any case. That's not why I watch this show. I tend to fast forward through kissing scenes in a lot of movies. And if there is too much "romance" I tend to roll my eyes and shut it off. And I really don't think this show is about exploring romantic relationships (whether het or otherwise). It is however very much a bromance type show. A buddy show, if you will. Fighting for a good cause, etc.

I may watch other shows for romance/relationships, if the romance is not overplayed. It doesn't matter to me if relationships are M/F, M/M, or F/F, or ?/? for that matter. If a relationship is done right, I enjoy it. But, as I said, *this* show is not about romantic relationships. Or even romantic partnerships. It is about saving people, hunting things, etc.

I'm rambling I think. LJ wouldn't let me post for about the past hour, so I've been saving up thoughts in my head from various comments and have likely smushed those thoughts up so much that they may not make sense.

Also, while I can see the friendship/family bond with Cas and the brothers. I really, really do not *get*/*see* any slash type spark between Dean & Cas. I really don't feel it. But that doesn't mean others don't. It really is a personal thing, I believe. And as someone else here said, I really do think that men/boys that are good friends, *do* a version of flirting and I don't really think that is queer-baiting. But maybe I don't understand that term enough.

All I know is that if Destiel (and like someone else said, I *hate* that word, D/C is ok), if Destiel were to become canon, I think that would be the one thing that would really cause me to leave the show. Or else skip episodes completely. Slash pairings are personal preferences, and shouldn't become canon (my opinion, only.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And if there is too much "romance" I tend to roll my eyes and shut it off.

Oh me too! I gravitate toward action, adventure, sci-fi, horror adn when it becomes overly romantic I shout "get on with it" (much the say way I was doing through Sam/Amelia ;D).

I think that's why when I came across the notion that d/c could become canon I did a bit of a..."I say what?! Are you crazy?" thing. It just seemed unfathomable. So I decided to look into a bit more and wow, people have some genuinely good arguments for why they could see and believe it could happen. But it's also worrying because they are taking a lot of what's happened in the show as "proof" when really, I see it as, "playing" with the audience. The show HAS baited and the fandom has taken the bait. Good for them in terms of fanon, but using it base solid arguments on as evidence that it's either already happening or is going to happen in canon can only end in bitter disappointment (unless they do surprise us and actually take that giant leap).

There is certainly the argument that what they do and say is all part of that male relationship. And I can accept it on that level, in some ways because, it can become part of the bond, friendship etc. (though I suppose Dean and Benny never spoke like that). And the same with Garth and Dean or Garth and Sam. Lots of hugs, but never any suggestive dialogue.

I really don't know. It may be all because they just can't settle on the Dean and Cas relationship. One minute it's best of mates, next it's "I'm not speaking to you" (like a lover's spat). They tell us there's a bond, but rarely do we really see it. With it like it is, it leaves it open to interpretation I suppose.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. I know it can be tricky (hence my concerns for hosting it in the first place). I am pleased to see that everyone has been amazing and there's been a wonderful discussion.

xx

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

THIS. I'm totally with you on this.

I love Cas. I love the relationship he has with Dean. But I think the existence of 'Destiel' has become not just the ship, but a symbol. And some want that symbol legitimized because then it means that they are validated.

(Wincest isn't nearly as 'hot-button' because I think everyone pretty much agrees that incest is taboo.)

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Very good points.