(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[kazluvsbooks.livejournal.com]

I hope you are wearing a raincoat..hee :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee...indeed.../o\

[ayane42.livejournal.com]

lol! my daughter's car broke down and I have to go get her.

so, if this were to ever be in the show it would have to be a meta episode.

i believe the writers are aware of it. at least Ben Edlund is (Castiel holding Dean in an angelic embrace, wink wink) and if they were to do this it would be an intentional nod at the viewers.

oops, maybe i clicked that one before i read them all. sorry frazzled.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oooh...a meta episode! Now that's a possibility actually. I hadn't considered that. I wonder if they'd have the guts to go there...

They could tackle wincest while they were there. (only that's more taboo, so I doubt they go that far...)

[destina.livejournal.com]

I think if the show were going to go there, they'd have gone there way back around the time they went to the 'blow me' and 'not for nothing but the last time someone looked at me like that I got laid' place. But mostly I don't believe the actors (Jensen, actually) or the producers have the balls. Zero balls are had. (I WOULD LIKE TO BE PROVEN WRONG.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

This was my point exactly in the recent discussion I had. If this were on a cable network then they might have the balls to go there. As it is, and the show has been well established within certain boundaries, I doubt they'd "risk" breaking them.

And yes, there were certainly more opportunities in past episode to take that direction if they were going to. I honestly think they just like teasing fandom (which I feel has now backfired on them considering the recent con kerfuffle).

Happy to be proved wrong. And in fact someone suggested that it could exist in a meta episode - which, hmmmm,....coooould possibly happen.

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I have trouble wanting anything to get in the way of my Sam/Dean OTP, so I don't really hope for it, but at the same time, I can't help but wish they did have the balls to do Destiel in canon if we can't have actual Wincest. Which methinks we can't. Alas. lol

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah that. I'm torn because I think it would be amazing if a mainstream show decided to take this route but I'm really not interested it seeing D/C because the pairing just doesn't work for me. That's purely personal of course. ;)

[a-carnal-mink.livejournal.com]

Dean and Cas are like my OTP to end all my OTPs but, speaking as an oldschool D/C'er, can I just register how deeply I hate that portmanteau? ;)

[rhymephile.livejournal.com]

Yes, THIS. It's been co-opted by Tumblr and that's what you have to label everything now. Bah, I hate it. We old-school shippers only used the "/" back in the day. I'm old.

More on the topic, as a member of the LGBT community, it would be amazingly *earth-shattering* to see a male character previously only seen as straight come out as bisexual on a network television show (despite its relative small viewership in the grand scheme of things). Now, Joss Whedon did it with Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but to be honest it's more acceptable to the viewing audience because she was female.

To have Show take a step to FINALLY follow through with all this wink-wink and double entendres and outright "You're confusing me with the other angel who's in love with you" stuff would be revelatory. I'm sick and tired of the writers (and the actors at cons) constantly jokingly referring to it, when I don't think they understand how important it would be to those of us in the community. It's not a joke. It's not funny. It's not cute. I wish they would stop playing it to the audience as such.

If it was never planned to have Dean come out as bisexual, fine. If that's the case, then they need to STOP with all the dialogue that can be interpreted in expressly gay ways for two male characters to be saying to each other and define the Dean/Cas relationship as strictly familial. Stop playing to your audience of teenage shippers and winking at the relationship. It pisses me off.

As a Dean/Cas shipper, I don't think it will ever be canon, because I don't think the writers would ever have enough balls to pursue it.

[antrazi.livejournal.com]

While I write mostly gen my reading goes more in the lines with Balthazar: everything goes. So no, I don't have any actual shipping preference, Destiel or otherwise. But yeah, Destiel is very much canon in the way they interact, the only question is if they are bumping ugly's.
So, are you talking about making that canon? Because you know the fandom, this easily gets out of hand in a clash of Destiel shippers vs. Wincest shippers. Again.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. I am talking about an actual romantic relationship. Declarations of romantic love, kissing - it all out in the open. I don't consider what they have at the moment to be a romantic love. I personally see it has an uneasy bond, where they are working out how their friendship works. There's no doubt the connection is there but I feel like they've only been "teasing" viewers (which is a discussion in itself). Or maybe they haven't. Maybe they are actually exploring the different levels of this relationship.

As strange as it sounds, this isn't about D/C v S/D for me. Shipping is shipping and I don't give two hoots about who people choose to ship. It's all part of the fun of fandom. What is interesting to me is what TPTB are doing and is there a direction they are heading in. Just my curiosity. I've already learned a thing or two reading various arguments and discussions.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I almost went with the "it will clearly never happen" choice. Basically if anyone could host such a discussion and keep it as reasonable as that subject could be, it would be you.

Destiel is a hot button topic for me. Actually after the last wank around it, I'm a lot more mellow about it than I used to be after seeing everyone go a little batshit crazy around the subject. And that is the very problem I have about the subject, I am unhappy about how much it seems to have driven this "great divide" in fandom. Yes there has always be versus wank prior to Dean/Cas. But the Destielers pushing/thinking it could be actual canon, to me, seems to have driven a much deeper wedge in fandom. And that saddens and angers me. And up until this subject, I've never really gotten hot under the collar about anything fan related. (I think, perhaps I've blanked it from my mind.)

Don't get me wrong I like Cas. And I like the bond between Dean and Cas. And I wish there were more Cas and Sam bonding going on. And I lol a little bit about how all the versus wank seems to be always about "who gets Dean!" lol. But these OTPs are fanon and shouldn't be canon. And yes there's a little bit of butthurt Sam/Dean OTP speaking here. Not of the wincest variety; but of the "show is and always shall be" about the brothers.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Destiel is a hot button topic for me.

Any for many I think. :)

And pretty much yes to all this for me also. I've been thinking about my general frustration towards Cas recently (and it's been growing for the last couple of years) and I think a lot of it boils down to how divisive the character has been in the fandom. I mean, I get it and I like that there are fans who enjoy the show because that exists for them but it has also created such a level of nastiness that it ends up reflecting on the character.

I'm trying for it not to because I don't want the show (or character) spoiled because of what's happened outside of the actual episodes. In some ways discussing this helps (the same way you said you're a little more mellow after seeing everyone go batshit crazy). Teasing the argument out and getting to the actual point of why this is happening helps me a little.

What I come away with is..each to their own. Nothing has changed. It's extremely unlikely they've even considered making D/C canon. I don't think it excuses them constantly teasing the audience with it though (and even though we can say "but they're just got a good male bond, there's no denying they plant suggestions all the damn time. Though less these last years I think). I'd like to see them drop that completely and stick to showing us a genuine friendship (like they did very successfully with Dean and Benny).

xox

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

ILU.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHA...

I know...;)

[twisting-vine-x.livejournal.com]

While I think Misha'd be up for it, and while we know that the writers and actors are well aware of what they're doing every time Dean and Cas have a lover's spat or stare longingly into each other's eyes (as per what Misha's said about them all paying homage to the Destiel dynamic), I don't think the SPN Powers That Be would ever have the guts to go there. As amazing as it would be to have a non-hetero canon pairing on a show (where their sexual orientation isn't the whole damn focus on the show), there's a portion of fandom that would tear the Powers That Be apart for canonically making Dean anything but manly male complete heterosexual, and we're still such a cult show that I don't think the Powers That Be would ever risk alienating any of their audience (not to mention risking the show's ability to get renewed, because, well, institutionalized homophobia sucks).

That being said, I, personally, view Destiel as canon already. In terms of the sexual orientation part of things, there have been more than enough hints at Dean not being completely straight (honestly, his entire character arc - up from 'Well, you are kind of butch. Maybe they think you're overcompensating.' and him being visibly uneasy around non-straight guys, to him getting all flattered and flustered when Aaron hits on him; and this isn't even considering his insane relationship with Cas - has been quite impressive, with regards to sexual orientation). He's gone from not-quite-homophobic-but-still-uneasy to the much more awesome place where he is now. And then Cas, of course, is a genderless angel in a male body who - by his own admission - is indifferent to sexual orientation, and who stares at Dean like Dean hung the moon, and who - canonically - is able to have sex, so. Yeah. I think that, canonically, there's enough to go on.

And that's not even getting into the emotional connection the two of them have, jesus christ. I'd give anything to have someone look at me the way the two of them look at each other. So are we ever gonna get Dean and Cas just flat-out making out on screen? Highly doubtful, unfortunately. But seeing as the actors and writers know damn well what they're doing, and seeing as Misha supports it, and seeing as there's already enough evidence to make an argument for their relationship already being canon - well, I'll take it. And if the SPN Powers That Be ever decide to go any further, I'll support 'em completely, cause that would be awesome.

... Also, apologies for writing you a novel, when the poll was simply to see whether even starting this conversation was a good idea. Apparently I have a lot of feels. XD

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi there,

Thanks for the novel! :D Nicely put. And it's pretty much what I've been reading. That there's enough there to take it as canon for those who want it. And that's the point I suppose. It's there for those who want it. It can equally be said for those that don't. For me I struggle to even see the friendship at times, but I do see that there's a big enough "mess" for it to be read in any way that works. And I don't mean "mess" as a bad thing. Mostly, that they are still trying to work it all out. Both their relationship and what to do with it.

Though canon for me would be making it completely overt (kissing and everything) rather than just dropping hints. I can't see them ever going there though - which leaves us with reading it in the way that makes us happiest.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. <3

[stormcloude]

You're making me cry. :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Sorry hun! See, it was making me cry so I decided to really look into it and see what's being said. It's just my way of dealing with it. If it helps, I can't see this ever happening. Many of the arguments I saw have been based on what they thought would be happening in Season 8.


*hugs*

[tiniowien.livejournal.com]

I love you to bits and your posts always make me smile but the choices you put up there for that poll hit me as really quite peculiar. I can see how you went from yes to no to yes again in theory, but as I went down the list I found it harder to try and pick one to click and answer. It kind of unsettled me and I can't put my finger on why, so I'm going to give an apology hug for the ramble and head back to my corner after this. <3

The fact that you're even considering braving the waters of an essay on the topic however is really cool and I trust the reactions of folks here are more mature than on tumblr when any ship topic is brought up. Wank is never needed anywhere. :)

twisting_vine_x was very eloquent and I can't add much to her post, only to say that if Castiel's vessel had been originally chosen as female and their interactions across the years kept identical, critics would be lauding these two from the rooftop of every magazine as TV's most clever, unrequited build-up. The X-Files once made a fortune out of holding Mulder and Scully at arm's length while displaying their obvious care and affection for one another and then closing that gap ever so slowly over time.

I can't say personally if I ever see it becoming canon in the near future, but I know that whatever the show's endgame is/will be, they're certainly not above throwing constant titbits to the audience and I get the faint impression (from both online and my own friends and family - particularly my mother who is in her 60s and wouldn't understand subtle if it hit her with a proverbial brick) that these hints are broadening from the original nods to the side of the fandom they know is watching, to something casual viewers can -and have- picked up on. Whether this is part of a deliberate evolution or just them trying to please everyone while still making sure to add the bro moments I can't say. I know what I quietly have come to believe based on what I've witnessed and my own conversations with Misha, however they have two more seasons at least and if I were a gambling woman I'd say we wouldn't get anything concrete (if we ever do) until the final days.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

Sadly, if Cas's vessel had been female from the beginning I doubt the character would have remained on the show. Virtually any female character who was of an age to be a love interest and who had a long term role has been disliked by fandom. AFAIK Cas was originally supposed to be on for a few episodes and then Anna would have taken on the role of angel who switches sides. The fandom fell in love with Misha so he stayed and Anna went.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

LOL. Seeing this poll and the choices to click made me grin. Other than being tempted to click "Ha! You clearly have too much time on your hands. Go and make stuff" for the laugh of it, the honest choice would be "What?! Is this show some fucking soap opera now?!" *clix*
I'm still traumatized from how they potrayed Cas in the last ep. This was the first time I thought maybe the show would be better off having killed him off quite a while ago. And I actually really like Castiel. But not in this whiney, trying to kiss Dean's ass kind of fashion and trusting Metatron because Dean is not there to tell him otherwise.(puke)
But anyway *deep breath* if you do post a discussion about destiel in the show I'd come and have a look anyway. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*hugs* you honey!

I clearly DO have too much time on my hands and the show IS a damn soap opera at times! The relationship discussions make me wonder what friggin' genre this show is sometimes! :D

And yeah. I'm pretty annoyed about what they did with Cas in the last ep. I suppose all the characters have been somehow "reset" this season (the actors have even said this themselves), so this might be Cas's reset. Back to childlike, confused about his role in the scheme of things, seeking Dean's approval type of behavior. Shame, because it looked like they were going somewhere with him. But you never know, they might be leading up down the garden path with this one...;)

xx

[serpentsheart.livejournal.com]

I just don't see this deep connection others do with Destiel or buy it, guess I can't let go of how intense Sam and Dean were in the early seasons. I just end up resenting the writers for dumping them and shifting away from the intense codependent laser focus on Sam and Dean's relationship by making everyone Dean's very best friend/sibling.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it does seem like a direction they are taking. Though I am happy that the end of the season seems to be focusing again on their incredible, codependent, "I'd do anything for you" relationship. :)

[galathea-snb.livejournal.com]

ROFL why would you invite that kind of wank into your journal?

Personally, I have to admit that the thought of Destiel makes me sick to my stomach, and if the writers would ever go there, I would be out before the respective episode is even over. As someone who finds the relationship between Dean and Castiel poorly written and developed and more forced than anything, such a scenario is just preposterous. Plus, introducing a D/C romance to the show would drastically shift its focus and I could never support that. I think fanon should stay fanon and the writers should rather concentrate on improving their story-telling than cater to the needs of a vocal potion of fandom.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ha! Well, it seems a discussion has happened and I'm thrilled to report - no wank so far. I am a little startled by that fact, but equally not, because I have an awesome flist. :)

And you've pretty much summed up a lot of what has been mentioned in lower threads.

writers should rather concentrate on improving their story-telling

I think they are struggling to tell the stories they are currently telling without adding a layer that would require a deft touch - which, er, as much as I adore my show I don't think subtle, sensitive, groundbreaking story telling is on the table.

Besides. There's too many monsters to kill to worry about romance! (surely they figured that out after the first half of the season). ;D

xxx

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

I like discussions about pretty much anything - because that's the way I tick. I don't have a presonal stake in it (I'd love the show whether Dean digs girls, guys, both or neither) but I do have opinions. However, from what I read in cupidbows post there is a lot of wank and hating fandom fractioning going down over that issue on tumblr, so I'd think carefully about it. Having said that, I think you've managed to cultivate a rather well behaved flist, so it might just be a very interesting discussion. Looking at the comments, you're already having that discussion anyway - so this is kind of a moot point. ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I like discussions about pretty much anything - because that's the way I tick

I do to and I am pleased to say there's been a pretty interesting and civil discussion. Paint me impressed. :)

It's actually cupidbows post that sparked all this. I've seen her mention it a couple of times and now that I am a little more active on Tumblr I'm seeing stuff pop up over there. I wanted to investigate it all a little further to see how much weight the argument was holding. There's a lot of stuff out there, that's for sure. I started to write down my own thoughts on it, which was when I decided that I might poll the electorate before I went much further.

I won't be posting it because this discussion has pretty much covered stuff I was going to say anything. :))

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I picked 2 no answers. The one about how it will end in tears and I don't think it will happen in canon anyway. TPTB may be too scared to go with a bisexual storyline, but there are also issues with Cas and the fact that he co-opted a person's body that make the whole consent issue tangled up in the discussion. That said, it's your journal and if you want a discussion on Destiel becoming canon go for it. I won't participate because of the whole ending in tears and not believing it will ever become canon thing, so I can skip the whole discussion.

If you do start a discussion, I would f-lock it. There really are a lot of really intense people in the online fandom and it could get ugly if your discussion gets noticed and some of the more invested parts of the fandom bring the wank over to your journal.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi there,

I have to say I am extremely pleased to say that quite a discussion has taken place and so far there have been no tears and no wank. With over 100 comments on the post I'd say that's pretty good going.

Tbh I keep expecting to receive the anon wanky comment just to stir things up, but so far everyone has been amazing. And there have been some very interesting issues raised.

I actually won't be posting anything further, mostly because I'm having the discussion I had hoped to have AND others have been much more eloquent in their points than I was going to be...;)

xx

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

My issue with the whole situation is, I would want the relationship to be portrayed consistently and with respect, and I honestly don't think this group of writers is capable of that - given that they've *never* displayed any consistent vision, respect or affection for any of their characters. When you look at a show and can say, "[X] writes Dean this way, and [Y] writes Dean that way," that's not going to result in anything upliftingly ground-breaking.

To the members of the LGBT community who want to see the television industry move forward in their onscreen portrayals of bisexuals, I'd ask, "Do you really want to give that over to a bunch of frat boys whose idea of a loving nod to fandom is BECKY ROSEN?"

That said... yes, I'd be interested in reading a thoughtful discussion of the situation, though I suspect that might be no more possible than Supernatural's writers being able to create a ongoing layered, respectful, consistent M/M relationship.

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

Hijacking your comment, but only because I agree with much of it. While I don't think TPTB will ever go through with it, if they do, it would need to be done as you said, with consistency and respect. They dont always manage to that with Sam and Dean's brother relationship. They certainly don't do it with Dean and Cas' friendship, most recent episode as evidence with Dean being all pissy and throwing up Sam as an example to Cas as someone who is there for him. Really writers? Dean has never had an issue with Sam not being there for him ever, not even this season?

On top of all that, I would prefer Show to focus more on family and friendship in general when not dealing with the supernatural,rather than romantic ones, but that is just a personal preference. I wouldn't be up in arms too much if they added that element,as long as it was done right.I am just not sure it would be.

[werty30.livejournal.com]

I've seen some Tumblr posts on this topic, but it was mostly on the lines of "Look, Dean is crying over Sam's dead body. He misses his angel so much." I don't know if this can produce much discussion. Some people really want this to happen, some people really don't. As one of the latter, I feel pretty confident that it'll never happen. As Jensen said, not what the show is about.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there have been some interesting comments around the place (hee...I've never heard that one though.../o\).

I have to say it has generated lots of discussion here and it's been pretty interesting (and remarkably civil). The issues seem to be deeper than just whether they will go there or not. I think it's pretty certain that they won't, but I do find the arguments why they will or won't interesting.

OH MY...

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

you certainly are a brave one. Its your journal and I say go for it. If we cant act like reasonable adults--then you boot us out.

Personally, even though I admit to being a D/S girl all the way, I do SEE the ust between dean and Castiel. its there! I dont care what anyone else says---two males dont usually look at one another that way unless they are either gonna kill or fuck.

having said that, I agree that TPTB dont have the balls to go there. They tease the audience because HELLO they are actors! they have obviously discovered that this portion of the audience is just a tad bit more invested** and they are playing up to us. Theres nothing to be angry about here, hell Im flattered that they are even bothering. I think its awesome--I love my show. so, in conclusion--10 seasons and a movie!!!! and if there is some concrete homo-ness btw Dean and Cass, I will probably explode into a hundred gay rainbows, but I wont hold my breath. what do u think this is HBO? @@. lol

Re: OH MY...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

If we cant act like reasonable adults--then you boot us out

I'm pleased to say that every one has acted like reasonable adults after quite the discussion has broken out. :)

And I'm pretty sure that the fact that it isn't on HBO answers the question anyway - I don't imagine for a minute that they'd go there. They might pleasantly surprise us, but as a few have made the point on this thread - do we trust the writers to do a storyline like that justice?

I'd be happy if they'd get the story lines they are working on at the moment into some sort of focus. :)

[electricmonk333.livejournal.com]

I have no doubt that Destiel will never become canon nor that there has been any build-up. To put it in perspective, I think there's been about as much build-up for Destiel as there has for Wincest on the show or J2 in real life.

I am always baffled when people are so quick to jump to gay love when two men are shown to have s strong, loving, caring relationship. It really reveals the disturbing stereotypes people hang on to of men and what is appropriate for an interaction between them.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

"I am always baffled when people are so quick to jump to gay love when two men are shown to have s strong, loving, caring relationship. It really reveals the disturbing stereotypes people hang on to of men and what is appropriate for an interaction between them."


THIS.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

It's a difficult thing to answer. I am very much following Destiel on Tumblr and I think it's so easy to be persuaded more and more that Destiel is possible when you keep reading posts that say just that.

But I am convinced that narratively they must have some resolution to the problems Dean and Castiel have been having lately. Their argument in the last episode was an argument between people who love each other but are just failing to adequately communicate; even Sam knew it and coughed uncomfortably to break the tension. So my jury is out until 8.23. I think we should have a solid idea one way or the other then.

Because for all the jokes they've had about Dean/Cas in the show, most of them happened before season 8. Season 8 has suggested something far more serious between them. There are also something like 8 or 9 examples of human/supernatural relationships in S8, including in 8.22 with the Nephelim being the result of a human/angel relationship. That the pattern of human/supernatural relationships culminates in an human/angel relationship doesn't seem to me like a nod-and-wink way of including Destiel subtext. It strikes me as a pattern that has some meaning. Put it together with the several indications this season that Dean may not be as straight as previously thought--his stumbling interaction with Aaron being the most obvious moment--and it just seems like it's a narrative thread that should not be left hanging, unaddressed. I also think that while Jensen does seem to have problems talking about Dean/Cas, he has no problems playing Dean's attraction to Cas. This comparison of scenes always makes me laugh, though at the same time I'm not sure the scene with Cas is entirely intended to be a joke.

I do feel that if they don't intend to go canon, then they need to stop with the subtext. It's cheap at this point. Plus, it's hardly new--so many shows and films these days have intentional homoerotic subtext. It's time to either commit or fully back away, and to make that decision clear to fans.

One thing I am very curious about is the extent to which TPTB, whoever exactly they are, might feel about it. From interviews about This Means War, I have a feeling McG would be on board, but I have no clue what kind of interest he even takes in Supernatural or what kind of say he would have. I think Jeremy Carver has said something before about how he thinks there should be more m/m romance on TV. The CW people? I have no clue. But whatever the situation is, I hope that we at least have an indication in the finale.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

"I do feel that if they don't intend to go canon, then they need to stop with the subtext."

I concur. As my dad would say: shit or get off the pot.

By the same token, you also find what you're looking for. If you're looking for homoerotic subtext, you'll find it even where none was intended. Your perception is your own reality. (Funnily, that's been the Season Eight's theme. Hmm!)

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Ha!

I guess I'm the really odd one in this fandom that doesn't give a shit about shipping or who's bumping uglies, I'm not here for the soap opera story.

Season 4 gave us this wonderful character, a warrior, an angel of the lord, who's very voice could shatter glass, who's visage could burn the eyes from a human skull. His true form is as big as the Chrysler Building and it's crammed into this humble human being, a man with a wife and child that gave his consent to be a vessel. Shattering and powerful speeches that made my skin crawl "I can throw you back" I WANTED MORE! I really don't like this bumbling comedy relief - but again, that's my take on things. But now parts of fandom want him and Dean to be boyfriends on the show, that so depresses me, it seems so mundane and ordinary and normal and not what I tune into show for... keep it in in fandom? Fine - go for it, knock yourself out, ship anything and anyone you want, label it, own it, I'm happy. Start campaigning to writers, actors, crew for a romance? Get pandered to? So not impressed.

I do feel for those who would like to see a male character on a TV show come out as bi-sexual and have a need for representation in that way. Having watched 8 seasons of SPN, cringed at the quality of the gay jokes, read the Twitter feeds, watched the con vids and the gag reels, I do wonder why they think this show could ever be that ground breaking representative. Honestly? These guys? This group of ( as far as I know) mainly straight identifying married guys whose main source of amusement seems to be playing gay, dressing up and humping each other for the con crowds? Not in my world view thank you. There will be a better show than this.

I've read many pieces of meta on "Dean is bisexual" - while interesting reading, I don't agree on it as a fact, to me it's personal interpretation of the text and not canon. I see canon as the script, before the actors allow their emotions to flow, the director sets the scene, the editor leaves in the lingering pretty shots and the music editor adds to our emotion. I see family, I see friends and enemies and the ever changing lines between. I see characters that have grown and aged and had their world views turned inside out. I don't see Dean and Cas mooning over each other and 'in love' any more than I see Sam and Dean mooning over each other in a romantic way either. I do love though that fandom does see both and more.

Sometimes I feel it's a bit like teacher's pet syndrome, no one really wants the other side to 'win' and there's this ugly clamouring for attention from anyone with a connection to the show and the resulting tantrums from a few. I hate it. For every call of "ew slash", there's the "ew incest" or "ew consent". I, personally have huge consent issues and have struggled with many concepts and story lines in this show, if, IF Deastiel/Dean/Cas/D/C becomes true canon then I know I won't cope and will turn away from show totally. Just please, please leave it alone, ship and let ship, leave it in fandom, leave it as it is now in individual perception, let everyone have their own fantasy ships within the show. Does ship validation really matter? Is it really worth tearing up our fandom family over?

I know, sorry honey, I know I said I'm done with this fandom - damn place always proves me wrong.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Butting in just to say how much I love this phrase, "ship and let ship"

[gidgetgal9.livejournal.com]

Bravo to your open and very honest without any feelings being hurt discussion! I was on the are you a mad woman- just because I've seen this subject become really heated! I don't ship D/C but I like they're friendship but then at the end of the day, I tend to not ship but enjoy the show for the brotherly relationship of Sam and Dean. I read slash if it is a good story but I really like what the show is and puts out there. This discussion aside- the Pollyanna and me just wishes the fandom could get along like your flisters did in this discussion! ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi.

It's been very cool to have an interesting and emotional chat without any hair pulling and gnashing of teeth. I think once people understand that everyone has their own view on things or have differing opinions because we are all different, the discussion can be less heated.

This was never about being hateful of what's going on or not going on, but rather looking at whether this could happen and if so how.

And fandom, for me, is a much happier place when people are getting along while talking about the deeper issues. :))

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I think it's reading too much into it. I've seen tumblr posts where every little thing is pointed to as proof that Destiel will become canon. Seeing things as foreshadowing, like the human/supernatural relationships in season 8. Someone tweeted Robbie Thompson, asking if the thing with Charlie and the Fairy was foreshadowing something that could happen later on, and he said "it wasn't to me, the story was just about Charlie and Gilda." And there's lines like "You're confusing me with the other angel who's in love with you", but Balthazar also said the same kind of thing to Sam in 6.11 "Well, then go ask your boyfriend." And Sam replies "Cas can't help me." It isn't meant to be taken literally.

Destiel will never be canon. It's not what the show is about.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I agree with what's you've said. It's never been my take on it - I mean I can see how all the innuendo can be used, but I mostly see it has the show teasing the fans (which I'm not sure I'm particularly thrilled about). I just find it curious that there's been some real discussion about this being a possibility. I don't think for a minute that it will happen because, as you said, it's not what the show is about - plus I just don't think they'd take it there.

As fans we can look for all sorts of hints and bend all sorts of moments and scenes into something we want to believe. It's all fun - we'll it should be...;D