(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[electricmonk333.livejournal.com]

I have no doubt that Destiel will never become canon nor that there has been any build-up. To put it in perspective, I think there's been about as much build-up for Destiel as there has for Wincest on the show or J2 in real life.

I am always baffled when people are so quick to jump to gay love when two men are shown to have s strong, loving, caring relationship. It really reveals the disturbing stereotypes people hang on to of men and what is appropriate for an interaction between them.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

"I am always baffled when people are so quick to jump to gay love when two men are shown to have s strong, loving, caring relationship. It really reveals the disturbing stereotypes people hang on to of men and what is appropriate for an interaction between them."


THIS.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Jumping on this because the same thought crossed my mind as I was watching Star Trek just now. Kirk and Spock have an amazing bond and the films really emphasis their relationship. I can see that it's open to interpretation (and I know the ST fandom slash them like whoa) but in my mind it's nothing but a deep, loving bond between two men. Same as Dean and Sam, same with Cas and Dean (and Sam), and same as Dean and Sam and Bobby. I love that this show explores these male relationships at such a complex level. I like that it isn't about romantic love, but rather strong male friendships. It's one of my favorite things about the show.

xx

[electricmonk333.livejournal.com]

Ha ha.It's funny when someone brings up Kirk & Spock because it all started with Kirk/Spock back in the 80s! It's why I stay out of ST fandoms. Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are the Holy Trinity for me and I refuse to have their dynamic reduced to slash ships.

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

*peeks in*

K/S started way before the 80s - my guess is, around the first half of S1, in 1966-67? A friend of mine was doing "The Man from UNCLE" slash around the same time.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I loved ST back in its day (though I was watching it in the 80s, not when it first aired in the 60s) along with Starsky and Hutch and The Professionals. Slash wasn't even a thing I knew about then and I only even saw these relationships as amazing male friendships. I still do. Even with all the slash writing available to read I can't go there. I think mostly because of the history I have with the characters.

S/D and J2 are the only pairings I read and that could be because it's become part of my fandom experience and I find that I can disconnect the way I watch the show and what I read.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in just to add, the fact that so many kinds of bonds between men have been explored on the show suggests to me that romance is also an option. We've seen the relationship between brothers, fathers and sons, friends, allies, enemies, all of these complex relationships have been explored in various ways. So why not romance, too? There's no reason it can't be just as meaningful and complex as any other bond.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

We saw it in the episode with the convention 5.09 (Demian and Barnes) as well as the Ghostfacers one (3.13). And then there's Charlie, of course.

But there hasn't been romantic homosexual canon with any of the leads. Why? Who knows. Wasn't the way Cas and Dean were actually intended, probably.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Well, I would hardly call either of those episodes explorations of romantic bonds between men. Not in the same way as we've seen all the other kinds of relationships, anyway, stretched over seasons and literally through hell and back. Likewise Charlie/Gilda (though, in relation to my comment below, that was an encounter between a human and a supernatural being with wings who was being controlled by an evil force...).

As for intent, Castiel was obviously not intended to be Dean's love interest, no. Anna was. And then, because he was so popular, Anna's storyline and her role in Dean's storyline through seasons 4 and 5 was given to Cas. Which kind of puts him in the place, narratively at least, of Dean's love interest.

I'm not arguing that it's going to happen or it's not, or that there's a right or a wrong way to interpret the text as it is. Obviously I don't know. But I do think that canon Destiel is at least possible, possibly a little more possible than many commenters here seem to believe. But who knows? We won't know for sure until a) it happens or b) the final credits roll on the last episode and it hasn't happened.

I do enjoy debating it, though, so please don't think me argumentative. I'm just putting ideas out there as food for thought. And it's good to get perspectives from outside the Destiel fandom. I don't often come across such perspectives on Tumblr.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

"As for intent, Castiel was obviously not intended to be Dean's love interest, no. Anna was..."

Oh, you're right! That definitely does put the Dean and Cas relationship in a slightly different light. And I don't think you're being argumentative at all. (Ditto for me; I hope I'm not coming off as crotchety.)

I often question my own cringing when I stumble across a really strong D/C agenda, to be honest. I'm not squeamish about same-sex relationships AT ALL; I think it has more to do with how some in fandom are behaving. On both sides of the fence.

We see fans trying to repeatedly get the actors to admit to romantic love between the two. It isn't something the actors can confirm or deny, frankly. Misha continues to tease the "profound bond" and Jensen doesn't want to comment. It's really in the writers' lap.

SPN may not be the right vehicle to deeply explore a romance between two men; it hasn't been particularly successful in exploring ANY sort of romance, frankly. Even the heteronormative ones! (Which are similarly shot down by fans.) I'm not sure we can make anyone happy, heh.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

This is a very good point --> "As for intent, Castiel was obviously not intended to be Dean's love interest, no. Anna was..." It does put a different slant there. I'm curious, was Anna introduced back when Dawn What'sHerName was still trying to introduce female love interests into the show (i.e., the whole Jo-Bela-Ruby fiasco)? I think one of the Js and perhaps other BTS folks have commented after she left about attempts to introduce that dynamic. (But yet, us fans foiled her again, and went ga-ga over Cas instead.)

I do agree with the rest of your comments. As well.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I think I may have not responded at the correct comment thread. A lot of very good discussion. :)

I just wanted to observe that this --> "Castiel was obviously not intended to be Dean's love interest, no. Anna was." Is a good, interesting point.

While I'm not a D/C shipper, it is interesting that the character of Cas did take over and more or less "replace" Anna in the writer's original storyline. It is interesting. I made a comment below wondering if "Anna as a love interest" (not sure I'd heard that before, perhaps I had, not sure), may have been a small part of the whole Dawn campaign to get some "normal" female love interests for the brothers. Lol. If so, did that ever backfire on her. In a way I like. :)

I like hearing other points of view. Thanks for all your observations.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is a great conversation! It's really interesting for me to get perspectives I don't usually come across.

Finding out that Castiel took Anna's intended storyline was like a lightbulb moment for me. It explained certain things about Dean and Castiel, like the intensity of Castiel's disappointment in Dean when Dean intended to say yes to Michael, and the extent really of what he was willing to do for Dean ("I killed two angels this week, I rebelled, and I did it, all of it, for you" - powerful stuff).

I think it's quite a shame that Anna's character was not given more scope to develop. Though, when I rewatched seasons 4 and 5 recently, it was really obvious that Dean and Anna (and/or Jensen and Julie) had little to no chemistry. It worked as a one night stand but it was difficult to see how they might have made more of it. Whereas Dean's chemistry with Cas, however you read it, is pretty palpable.

Dawn Ostroff (I think??) had some weird ideas about what Supernatural needed. I like how it backfired too! While I do wish we could have more female characters, we don't need love interests. FYI, CW.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

^ Holy cow, SECONDED.

[chemm80]

I might respectfully suggest that that is rather the point of slash, or at least A point of it: the subversion of those stereotypes about male relationships and the exploration of them by pushing the relationship to (what is sometimes considered) the nth degree.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Huh. Good point!