(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[rhymephile.livejournal.com]

I do wonder why they think this show could ever be that ground breaking representative. Honestly? These guys? This group of ( as far as I know) mainly straight identifying married guys whose main source of amusement seems to be playing gay, dressing up and humping each other for the con crowds? Not in my world view thank you. There will be a better show than this.

I wanted to offer a comment here since I mentioned upthread that I thought Dean's revelation as being bisexual would be earth-shattering (IMHO as a member of the LGBT community), and I wanted to specify why. It's because of exactly *what* this show is. This show is practically the definition of "manliness." Tough cars, leather jackets, blue-collar upbringing, beer-drinking, girl-chasing, dive bars, road trips, shotguns, violence and oozing testosterone on a week to week basis for eight years. To have a lead character on such a heteronormative and Hollywood-stereotypical heterosexually-driven show exhibit doubt (maybe) as to his orientation because of a relationship with another male character *is* ground breaking to me to see after eight years. And while I agree with you that the writers lack the possible finesse required to actually make Dean bisexual, it's still a tantalizing prospect simply because of who the character is.

I do, however, agree with your assessment of them "playing gay" to the con crowds and making completely inappropriate jokes, mostly because the con crowds lap it up because it plays into their fictionalized, tinhatty interpretation of who these guys are. None of them are gay but the con crowds love seeing *anything* that might make them think otherwise. And so no one calls them out on the shit they say because fans would rather make gifs of Jared and Jensen simulating sniffing and rubbing Castiel's coat on their faces when asked a question about what Dean did after picking up Castiel's trenchcoat from the water in Season 7.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Hi there, I can see here how I might have been clearer on my first post, because everything you've written here I agree with 100%.

Left alone as the show in your first paragraph, the show I fell in love with, then Dean being bi-sexual 'in canon' would have been bloody perfect - tell you the truth in my head canon? Dean is and always HAS been bi-sexual.

It's the problems in your second paragraph that led me to say "better show than this". I can't tell you how delighted I would be to see him casually hook up with as many guys and girls.

There's so many sides of the argument now that are getting all caught up and muddled together and sorry, but I still lay it all at the feet of the few "DESTIEL MUST BE CANON - DEEEEN LOOOOOVES HIS CAAAAAS" loud mouths that are ruining all the interesting discussions that we could be having with their insulting "you're a homophobe" if you even dare to question their 'all abiding truth' at the whole 'romance' of it. That's wanting your fantasy played out on screen because you're imagination is severely lacking. I hate the way they're crying "homophobe" at every utterance out of an actor's mouth, I see the latest wank is because Jensen described Dean as "manly" they are out of control and as much as I would have loved to see Dean in the show of your first paragraph be bi-sexual? Not now, not ever, not with this baying brood of nincompoops who think they have the right to judge another person's sexuality by watching a tv show. Notice they don't care whether Castiel chooses to be bi-sexual or gay or asexual - phhhht - he's an angel of course he want to bang Dean! *rolls eyes** Self identification is something that doesn't exist in their world either. They don't really want Dean to be bi-sexual and have a fling with a bloke he meets in a bar, they rather have him 'GAY for CAS!' but for those pesky girls he flirts with and beds goes against that argument, so bi-sexual it has to be and I'm highly insulted by that and I expect you and many others are too.

Part of it I admit, is also because I don't want romantic relationships on my show, I find other relationships far too interesting to explore, why I found Sam/Amelia so very tedious, have to say though if Sam had 'hooked up' with a male vet when he hit that dog, I think I might have sat up and taken more notice simply because there would have to have been more to tell than the picnics in the park and "I'm not ready to let this go" dialogue! :) Why is Sam always left out of the bi-sexual discussions? Ah, he's not their ship - kind of proves the point again really doesn't it?

Slash fiction, be it romantic or not, to me has nothing at all to do with the canon of the show, it's fantasy, it's not forwarding gay rights and I'd rather it stay in fandom. To read it or write it, you've already probably changed the sexual orientation of the characters in your head, and that fine, that's great, that's how fantasy and fan fiction works, but you don't have to change the show to enjoy it. I'm sure we don't need to be constantly reminded of our obsessions by the 'playing gay' at cons. I still say many of the cast and crew don't really "get" slash fiction and what it means to us in fandom.

Continues......

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

But going back to our discussion, break the arguments away from those "loud mouths" and back into the individual question of could Dean Winchester be bi-sexual though and it's far more interesting.

There were many discussions about Dean being bisexual before Cas ever came on the scene, never did they dissolve into slanging matches and there were some very interesting thoughts put forward and I agreed a lot. No one was out to prove anything and no one needed to campaign to make it canon and I can't remember one instance where "hugging a man" was put forward as proof! I think though you'll find quite a few of the "old guard" of fans who were very open to the idea that Dean's sexuality was very fluid, the way he grew up, on the road etc and would have been really, really happy to have seen Dean and Sam equally comfortable with whatever gender they'd chosen for the night - Sam more so in his past than show present. I don't think you'd have many openly agree right now and that's bloody sad, but show writers went with the shallow and some Destielers are screaming for the romance of it all.

And it could have been so different. It would have broken many taboos to have Dean make a journey of discovery - I'm just not convinced a regular character on the show that's an angel of the lord would be the right choice, sexual relationships don't really have much of a future on a show such as SPN and I'd find better things to do with the angel and find Dean a nice buff doctor or something, someone for him to question and doubt about, someone he might wonder if he's using or loving - you know, something interesting! :))

Anyway, I'm sorry not to have made my first comments a little clearer, but thanks for questioning and I hope if I've made it even more muddled, you'll come back and ask for clarification, words aren't always my friend, but it's been lovely to chat. :))

[rhymephile.livejournal.com]

Left alone as the show in your first paragraph, the show I fell in love with, then Dean being bi-sexual 'in canon' would have been bloody perfect - tell you the truth in my head canon? Dean is and always HAS been bi-sexual.

He is bisexual in my head canon as well, because despite his hypermasculine tendencies, there is definitely a softness and kindness there underneath.

I do agree with you that I would have loved to have them explore Dean's bisexuality much earlier. In fact, to touch on Sam for a minute, I always thought he was imbued with more traditionally "feminine" characteristics. He was never as interested in constantly chasing women and rolled his eyes at Dean's conquests; he was always the one who would talk to the victims first because of his empathy; he's the one who left the tough, manly hunting life to get educated; and a number of other things. I would have thought it would have made more sense -- if this had ever been their plan in the first place -- to focus on him.

There's so many sides of the argument now that are getting all caught up and muddled together and sorry, but I still lay it all at the feet of the few "DESTIEL MUST BE CANON - DEEEEN LOOOOOVES HIS CAAAAAS" loud mouths

I completely agree. I don't know how old you are (I'm 38) or how long you've been in fandom, but never have I seen a time in which fans and fandom have such an influence on what is happening on television shows. To a certain extent it's good, because it gives showrunners and writers instant feedback on whether or not the direction they've chosen for a character meets with fan approval. It's okay when fans give feedback on what, *in their opinions* should be happening. But it seems Tumblr and its younger denizens have gotten a stranglehold on many showrunners' ideas. I absolutely HATE the stupid shipping polls, the meta on why Dean/Cas is canon (it's not; I choose to ship them wearing my slash goggles, just as much as Wincesters choose to ship Dean/Sam), or *anyone* telling me who or who not I should ne shipping and writing about in my fan fiction.

I think it's because of this new way fans can interact with writers and showrunners that they think being more vocal and loud and annoying might be able to change something.

Part of it I admit, is also because I don't want romantic relationships on my show

To be honest, neither do I. Besides, the writers would completely screw it up anyway. As much as I ship Dean/Cas, there's a part of me that doesn't really want them to take it to the next level. Perhaps a good comparison would be Mulder and Scully, if you ever watched The X-Files. I loved them together, and I know they loved and cared for each other, but I didn't want to *see* it. I love my UST. I would rather the writers make a definitive decision on just what Dean and Cas are to each other. Brothers in arms? Fine. Like brothers? Fine. The buddy in the next foxhole? Fine. A supernatural creature with whom Dean shares an intense bond? Fine. A Possible lover? Fine. JUST MAKE UP YOUR MIND, WRITERS. I simply want them to be consistent with characterization.

I find other relationships far too interesting to explore, why I found Sam/Amelia so very tedious

I found Sam/Amelia tedious because that actress had absolutely no chemistry with Jared. I would have loved to have seen him with Sarah, or even the woman from "Sex and Violence" who Dean thought was the siren. They had chemistry.

Long story short, I don't think there is any easy answer about why the writers continue to use loaded language in the scripts if they have no intention on going through with anything.