curled around these images

Ha!

I guess I'm the really odd one in this fandom that doesn't give a shit about shipping or who's bumping uglies, I'm not here for the soap opera story.

Season 4 gave us this wonderful character, a warrior, an angel of the lord, who's very voice could shatter glass, who's visage could burn the eyes from a human skull. His true form is as big as the Chrysler Building and it's crammed into this humble human being, a man with a wife and child that gave his consent to be a vessel. Shattering and powerful speeches that made my skin crawl "I can throw you back" I WANTED MORE! I really don't like this bumbling comedy relief - but again, that's my take on things. But now parts of fandom want him and Dean to be boyfriends on the show, that so depresses me, it seems so mundane and ordinary and normal and not what I tune into show for... keep it in in fandom? Fine - go for it, knock yourself out, ship anything and anyone you want, label it, own it, I'm happy. Start campaigning to writers, actors, crew for a romance? Get pandered to? So not impressed.

I do feel for those who would like to see a male character on a TV show come out as bi-sexual and have a need for representation in that way. Having watched 8 seasons of SPN, cringed at the quality of the gay jokes, read the Twitter feeds, watched the con vids and the gag reels, I do wonder why they think this show could ever be that ground breaking representative. Honestly? These guys? This group of ( as far as I know) mainly straight identifying married guys whose main source of amusement seems to be playing gay, dressing up and humping each other for the con crowds? Not in my world view thank you. There will be a better show than this.

I've read many pieces of meta on "Dean is bisexual" - while interesting reading, I don't agree on it as a fact, to me it's personal interpretation of the text and not canon. I see canon as the script, before the actors allow their emotions to flow, the director sets the scene, the editor leaves in the lingering pretty shots and the music editor adds to our emotion. I see family, I see friends and enemies and the ever changing lines between. I see characters that have grown and aged and had their world views turned inside out. I don't see Dean and Cas mooning over each other and 'in love' any more than I see Sam and Dean mooning over each other in a romantic way either. I do love though that fandom does see both and more.

Sometimes I feel it's a bit like teacher's pet syndrome, no one really wants the other side to 'win' and there's this ugly clamouring for attention from anyone with a connection to the show and the resulting tantrums from a few. I hate it. For every call of "ew slash", there's the "ew incest" or "ew consent". I, personally have huge consent issues and have struggled with many concepts and story lines in this show, if, IF Deastiel/Dean/Cas/D/C becomes true canon then I know I won't cope and will turn away from show totally. Just please, please leave it alone, ship and let ship, leave it in fandom, leave it as it is now in individual perception, let everyone have their own fantasy ships within the show. Does ship validation really matter? Is it really worth tearing up our fandom family over?

I know, sorry honey, I know I said I'm done with this fandom - damn place always proves me wrong.

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growyourwings.livejournal.com

Butting in just to say how much I love this phrase, "ship and let ship"

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You butt in all you like!

Great thing with shipping is it's free and non fattening and comes in all flavours!

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I *heart* you and this so hard right now. <33

IF I was considering posting what I had written on this matter I would now be screwing it up and tossing it in the bin because this was much more eloquently said then anything I was going to be able to.

It's essentially a lot of my argument. I'm not even going to re-state any of it because it hits it on the head for me.

Particularly this:

I do wonder why they think this show could ever be that ground breaking representative. Honestly? These guys? This group of ( as far as I know) mainly straight identifying married guys whose main source of amusement seems to be playing gay, dressing up and humping each other for the con crowds? Not in my world view thank you. There will be a better show than this.

I've been struggling to identify what it was about the recent con footage that made me think...this isn't sitting right with me. And that's it.

There are far better shows to be that ground breaking representative. As much as I love and adore my Show I can pretty much safely say they ain't the ones I would feel comfortable with tackling that. At the moment they're struggling to get the story lines that they ARE working with right, let alone one that would require a deft touch.

Thank you for your insightful thoughts. My head needed to get here. I've loved everything that's been teased out in this discussion and I know everyone comes at it from different viewpoints.

And as you know. My standpoint is ship and let ship too. <33

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galwithglasses.livejournal.com

Yeah, I think that perfectly nails what I was trying to get at earlier without being able to eloquently say it. SPN needs to settle down and work on telling the story they already have in front them. Getting a consistent characterization for Cas would help a lot. They have a enough trouble with big things like continuity, let alone tackling a subject that needed to be handled sensitively with a maturity which eludes this show with the ease of water flowing through a sieve.

On a completely different subject, I'm impressed as hell so far with what a great bunch of thoughtful comments people have contributed here. Ya'll are awesome.

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Well thank YOU for hosting such a safe, polite and interesting discussion - you do our fandom a great service! ♥

I think mainly they just don't understand how deep these feelings can run in fandom and how very, very close to the offensive line many of these antics are to some. As the old saying goes "it's all fun and games" but there's the ending of that one that goes "until someone gets hurt" and their skirting a very fine line.

Yeah, ship and let ship is always the way to go.

Editing to add - for anyone reading this.

I don't know about anyone else here, but 'D/C' or 'destiel', call it what you will, it's not the 'ship' I have problems with, although sometimes I may(wrongly) use it as a shorthand - no, it's never the 'ship' it's the 'loud, rude and clamouring attention seekers' I have a problem with. I think that needs clarifying.

Edited Date: 2013-05-12 09:58 am (UTC)

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Thanks sweetie. I'm so impressed that everyone has been able to play nice. I was sincerely hoping that that would be possible - and those that played here proved it could be done - with D/C shippers and non alike.

And yeah, it's sometimes that small but vocal minority that can turn something sour. As much as it would be nice if we could all just "ship and let ship", I suppose with so many different kinds of people in fandom it's not that simple. ;)

<333

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And because now you've got my thinky brain thinky thinking, I also wonder about the inherent difficulties with shipping a character such as Castiel.

Say show does set up a scenario where Dean and Castiel admit their passion and Castiel has to change vessels? I have to ask if Castiel had remained in Claire - a child - what then?

Talking as someone who doesn't ship, it's a hard question for me and I expect for even shippers to answer and another reason why I'm not comfortable with it being on the show.

Would there even be so many metas to claim Dean as bi-sexual if Castiel's present vessel wasn't male? I had seen a few questions about it before Castiel arrived, but never this push to make his sexual preferences and the ship canon, so some of this intense shipping to me has become only about the body and not the essence of Castiel as an entity, the character, and that is another huge hurdle with putting it on screen.

Again, I don't think this show could ever really handle all these problems, they tried with Ruby for Sam but even that didn't really address all the ongoing problems that could arise as they killed the demon and the occupied vessel - case closed.

Show could make Dean bi-sexual when he falls for Sammy's hot male nurse while his brother is convalescing from the trials - how popular would that make show? I have no idea as it's like comparing apples to oranges and I honestly don't know what changes people are really looking for, there's just too many sides to the argument. So I vote to leave it alone.

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Yay for thinky brains.

It's an interesting thought isn't it?! I would say whatever they chose to do they will be hard pressed to please everyone.

Shipping Cas is particularly tricky because of the vessel issue as you mention. The very thought that Ruby's vessel was alive caused all sorts of discussion (as it should). By all accounts Jimmy is still in there somewhere and so allowing him to have no say in who he has sex with would, no doubt, cause all sort of outrage (rightly).

Hmmm...I just can't see a way around this. Possessing someone else wouldn't solve that problem either - unless the person was in a coma or dead like Ruby was. Perhaps they declare Jimmy dead and therefore it's ok maybe? (can't see that happening either).

Maybe Cas could become like Anna. I believe she wasn't possessing a human. She was actually an angel without her grace. Maybe Cas would somehow do that. *brain hurts*

Show could make Dean bi-sexual when he falls for Sammy's hot male nurse while his brother is convalescing from the trials -

Ha! Now there's a conundrum. What if they DO make Dean bi-sexual but Cas is not his parter? Would the shippers be all...whoa, hang on. We'll only accept Dean as bi if he's with Cas? Oh hun.. it's all too hard to think about. And thinking along the lines of what Dean being bi and destiel being canon would actually look like it's pretty hard to imagine how they'd play it. I just can't imagine it to be honest. (The vessel issue is certainly a biggy).

And all this talk of Cas and Dean makes me miss Sam!! I'll have to have my Sam fix. <333

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You know I never really did get the whole Anna falling thing, the star and the baby born and her having the memory of being an angel and then turning up in a new body exactly the same because - I think it was, she "knew" someone? Um, why have the whole consent of a vessel thing at all then? Nah, confused the shit out of me I don't mind owning up to being totally out of my depth with the whole linear logic there.

Yeah, I'm sticking with Dean and Sam, brothers to the end. It's so much simpler! Ha!

Thanks again for the great conversations, it's been really interesting to ponder some of this stuff again.

♥

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Thanks for playing!

This damn show. Making us think about this stuff...;D

xoxox

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it seems so mundane and ordinary and normal and not what I tune into show for...

yes, so much this.

I also think it's more interesting to explore their relationship and motivations when the bond between Dean and Castiel is not sex-related. If the reason why, back in season 4 and 5, Castiel fall for Dean was because of their dicks, that would be so disappointing.

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I also think it's more interesting to explore their relationship and motivations when the bond between Dean and Castiel is not sex-related.

Very much so to me, sadly, very sadly mainstream TV seems to not recognise that a man and a woman can and do form intense and deep friendships so taking the 'will they/wont' they/when will they' sexual equation off the table should have given them this freedom to explore character bonds from the usual romantic role that male/female characters are always pushed.

Sadly they've fallen right into it again with all the innuendo and it's getting mired down with 'fanservice/queerbaiting/pandering" - I don't know what they're going to do, but they need to do something as it's getting ugly and beyond the playful jokes now.

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Observing from people around me (brother, especially hubby), I think friendship between guys has a different code of conduct than that between a guy and a gal. So, the show kind of innuendo seems to me more like frat house sorta joke, it's annoying in the way "Not this kind of fart joke again!" instead of enraging like "you are toying with my feelings!" In my opinion, it's actually pretty accurate depiction of a typical straight guy. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but, you know, accurate.

I am not as invested in the show as I used to be 2,3 years back; and I pretty much tend to take things at face values, but this season, or previous ones, I really do not see much of D/C or Destiel possibility. Yeah, Dean cut through purgatory to find Castiel, but, that to me is more of a brother-in-arm thing than romantic thing. Actually, my problem with D/C dynamic is that Dean seems to mostly want to use Cas's power, so, this turning purgatory upside down to find Castiel plot line works for me in that it shows Dean is not that user who uses. (side note, in my opinion, that trench coat scene was a little over the top, and bordering on ridiculous.)

Anyway, going back to the question of the original post, I don't think Destiel is going to be canon, ever.

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In my opinion, it's actually pretty accurate depiction of a typical straight guy. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but, you know, accurate.
Absolutely agree - the world is in reality not the well adjusted place we'd like fandom or show to be

The brothers-in-arms totally fits my opinion of Dean and Cas too, especially Dean's upbringing being like a soldier - never leave anyone behind.

Actually, my problem with D/C dynamic is that Dean seems to mostly want to use Cas's power, so, this turning purgatory upside down to find Castiel plot line works for me in that it shows Dean is not that user who uses.

Ah, that's very interesting and I'd never really thought about that before, but I have often thought that there are aspects of Dean's treatment of Castiel that verge on the derisive and that has made me uncomfortable, for I think, those very same reasons, something inside me doesn't like to think of Dean treating a friend like that. Dean though has many facets to his character that are distinctly unsavoury, why that one bothers me I don't know. Maybe, I look at it from the shippers pov with shock "you think this is love?" and I don't see it, I see borderline abuse sometimes, so no, I don't think it will ever be canon either.

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"Abuse" is the word that I really really want to use, but did not, for reasons. hee.

You know, I think the Winchesters' relationships with Cas are very interesting. With Sam, he first thought of angels as those higher power for the "good", and he was impressed and all. Then when he realized that they are indeed "dicks with wings", he really really kind of hold them in contempt, almost. Then, he realized that angels were God's creatures, and he was more or less quicker to forgive, 'cause it's Cas. It's almost like a child relationship with his parents.

With Dean, it's quite different. He started off suspicious and defiant, 'cause Cas did threaten that he could throw him back to the pit. It seemed to me he did not differentiate one angel from another; then he saw the crack in Cas's armor, and used it to save humanity, sort of. Coming season 5, there was team freewill. Only he was getting depressed and almost budged under the pressure. So Cas's "I fell for you!" was more heartbreaking in the sense that a solider was betrayed by the commander than shippy, anyway, that is my read on it. Coming season 6, did Dean say something close to "if you cannot help me with Sam, you are no use to me."? I remember feeling kind of appalled by the statement, though my unfair wincest heart was fluttering happily. For some reason, Dean did not see Castiel as vulnerable, in a sense, Castiel is this parental figure who can take anything from him.

Of course, Castiel went on to break Sam's wall. The most interesting turn of events in season 7 is that Sam has forgiven long before Dean did. Then, the sense I get is that in purgatory, Dean and Cas were on a more equal footing, and Dean took on the responsibility of getting him out of there.

Anyway, I kind of lost my train of thought here. So, going to get the kid down for the day. hee.

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No,no, that's a very good train of thought.

Honestly, if they really concentrated on how BOTH brothers react to this sometimes strong and often floundering but always complicated relationship with this angel, Castiel I'd be a lot happier, because the idea of like you say "angels of the lord" appearing to a couple of demon hunters from Kansas, should be far more fascinating than it is being portrayed.

I think there is much to be learnt about both brothers in the way they interact now with Castiel if they'd just delve a little deeper. To me it's maybe the surface that some are interpreting as "shippy"? The silly filler stuff as I call it - and I've never found any of it to be anywhere in the realms of "romantic" - I guess I like the fucked up, often bitter, and confusing juggling acts far more. But holy shit I can't imagine that's the beginning of a beautiful and loving relationship that these pushers seem to imply they want - hah, I watch a different show though than some shippers, I'm sure I do!

Bring on the complicated fucked up, I say. Fandom can and often does ships like that, show won't ever.

It's been great chatting with you!

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It's been great chatting with you too! my friends only laughed when I told them that I watch this show of two ghost hunters; and darling hubby always refers to it as "your two pretty guys show", sad face.

I like your "when angel of the lord meets demon hunters from Kansas" idea, that would be really fun to dig into (I can imagine Uriel goes: mudmonkeys; and Castiel goes: I want to observe the mudmonkeys. hee.). Though, I do not really like the vessel story line, it felt kind of ... contrived; and the parallel between Michael/Lucifer and Dean/Sam, not impressed. ha, guess I've never been impressed by parallels, be it canon or fannon. As heroic adventure stories go, I like Samwise's version: the hero stumbled into one, and somehow made it through. But then again, SPN was setting up for destiny against freewill, which is a philosophical question that I do not want the show to delve into, 'cause I tune in to be entertained, mostly, but not to have to think about, you know, deep thoughts. So there is that.

I honestly have never cared much for Castiel. His fall did not punch me in the gut like Sam's did. I mean, I don't FEEL for him. I wonder how much of that was intentional, 'cause how do we mere humans even begin to understand a creature that has lasted since the beginning of time. Therein lays my problem with any romantic relationship between Castiel and Dean, and any human for that matter. Humans are just way too transient and probably, really, pretty mudmonkey-ish to angels. And all that snide, threat, plea and silent treatment, probably, maybe, two guys (term loosely used) working on working things out; beginning of a beautiful relationship, I don't see it either.

Come to think of it, I think I don't really ship any ship. I ship wincest for the greater good. 'Cause they always always put each other as their number 1 priority, which is just grossly unfair to any other person who has the misfortune to be their spouse. That, and I am shallow, they are so pretty together. Sassy I can get on board, 'cause there is that basic understanding between them, if I handwave the long-life of an angel thing.

Sorry to word vomit at you. Yeah, I just really don't have anyone around me to talk about this; and I didn't realize I have this many thoughts about it.

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I've pretty much stopped talking about show in my journal, most of my flisties have left and as there are quite a lot of things that have happened this season that I can't come to terms with I usually end up really angry after every episode, not much use in that!

However, this post has really intrigued me and makes me more fond of the show again and it's been a real treat.

Ah, angels.

The vessels thing, well, in a way it was interesting, to differentiate between a demon inhabiting your body without consent to angels needing consent and Lucifer being an angel needed consent, but then they threw Ruby in a dead body at Sam and Anna in her own body but without her grace at Dean, so they could each fuck a demon and an angel and the whole thing ended up one big mess, when I could stop laughing that is! I never did understand how Anna got another body from somewhere that was exactly like her last one...I think! And this show really does consent issues very badly.

I'm another that has no "feelings" at all towards Castiel, I admit I loved his introduction and I loved the whole angels are just as dickish as demons idea. But feel for him? Nope, Two guys working on a relationship? Haha- opps, Nope. I've gone from liking Cas to being ambivalent, to raging that often he's nothing but a time waster. Finally had it over the "leave Sam's soul in the cage Dean, he's too damaged now and here's this nice fresh body that looks just like him" UHG! I drew my line about him then and I just can't any longer. You know, I did wonder for a long time if he even went into the cage for Sam at all? Maybe he just had a Sam body made by Anna's friend to hunt the Alphas for Crowley?

There's so much I want to know, if the angels use souls as power sources, then is that all they see humans as? There is no heaven, just a power plant? Hmmmm...sometimes it's like reading a book and finding your copy has been butchered, turn the page only to find you're suddenly in another plot altogether!

This year has been bad, so much of the basic foundations of my understanding have been murdered and trivialized, I'm waiting for Thursday to see if any of it can make any sense that I can live with. I'll be checking in here with ash though, I might surprise myself and have something to say!

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yeah, my flist has thinned out a little too, it's not that long a list to start with.

Angels and souls, I don't know if Sera Gamble and Jeremy Carver had a discussion about soul power, so that the show would do anything about it. Now that you've pointed it out, the statement from Samidriel "we're shepherd of those people" took on a whole new meaning, like literally angels are waiting for the harvest season.

Yeah, that logic of leaving Sam's soul in the cage is epic... something, fundamentally, seems like only Dean gets the idiocy of it. I kind of feel bad for Robo!Sam though, 'cause, as we are talking about consent issues, he clearly resented having his own soul shoved back in there. But, the body had been the home of that soul since forever; but the brain really really did not want the soul back.... all these things are giving me a headache, I will just stop here. hee.

Ah, it's Wed again, we'll know pretty soon how the season is going to end. Equal parts of excited and nervous.

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rhymephile.livejournal.com

I do wonder why they think this show could ever be that ground breaking representative. Honestly? These guys? This group of ( as far as I know) mainly straight identifying married guys whose main source of amusement seems to be playing gay, dressing up and humping each other for the con crowds? Not in my world view thank you. There will be a better show than this.

I wanted to offer a comment here since I mentioned upthread that I thought Dean's revelation as being bisexual would be earth-shattering (IMHO as a member of the LGBT community), and I wanted to specify why. It's because of exactly *what* this show is. This show is practically the definition of "manliness." Tough cars, leather jackets, blue-collar upbringing, beer-drinking, girl-chasing, dive bars, road trips, shotguns, violence and oozing testosterone on a week to week basis for eight years. To have a lead character on such a heteronormative and Hollywood-stereotypical heterosexually-driven show exhibit doubt (maybe) as to his orientation because of a relationship with another male character *is* ground breaking to me to see after eight years. And while I agree with you that the writers lack the possible finesse required to actually make Dean bisexual, it's still a tantalizing prospect simply because of who the character is.

I do, however, agree with your assessment of them "playing gay" to the con crowds and making completely inappropriate jokes, mostly because the con crowds lap it up because it plays into their fictionalized, tinhatty interpretation of who these guys are. None of them are gay but the con crowds love seeing *anything* that might make them think otherwise. And so no one calls them out on the shit they say because fans would rather make gifs of Jared and Jensen simulating sniffing and rubbing Castiel's coat on their faces when asked a question about what Dean did after picking up Castiel's trenchcoat from the water in Season 7.

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Hi there, I can see here how I might have been clearer on my first post, because everything you've written here I agree with 100%.

Left alone as the show in your first paragraph, the show I fell in love with, then Dean being bi-sexual 'in canon' would have been bloody perfect - tell you the truth in my head canon? Dean is and always HAS been bi-sexual.

It's the problems in your second paragraph that led me to say "better show than this". I can't tell you how delighted I would be to see him casually hook up with as many guys and girls.

There's so many sides of the argument now that are getting all caught up and muddled together and sorry, but I still lay it all at the feet of the few "DESTIEL MUST BE CANON - DEEEEN LOOOOOVES HIS CAAAAAS" loud mouths that are ruining all the interesting discussions that we could be having with their insulting "you're a homophobe" if you even dare to question their 'all abiding truth' at the whole 'romance' of it. That's wanting your fantasy played out on screen because you're imagination is severely lacking. I hate the way they're crying "homophobe" at every utterance out of an actor's mouth, I see the latest wank is because Jensen described Dean as "manly" they are out of control and as much as I would have loved to see Dean in the show of your first paragraph be bi-sexual? Not now, not ever, not with this baying brood of nincompoops who think they have the right to judge another person's sexuality by watching a tv show. Notice they don't care whether Castiel chooses to be bi-sexual or gay or asexual - phhhht - he's an angel of course he want to bang Dean! *rolls eyes** Self identification is something that doesn't exist in their world either. They don't really want Dean to be bi-sexual and have a fling with a bloke he meets in a bar, they rather have him 'GAY for CAS!' but for those pesky girls he flirts with and beds goes against that argument, so bi-sexual it has to be and I'm highly insulted by that and I expect you and many others are too.

Part of it I admit, is also because I don't want romantic relationships on my show, I find other relationships far too interesting to explore, why I found Sam/Amelia so very tedious, have to say though if Sam had 'hooked up' with a male vet when he hit that dog, I think I might have sat up and taken more notice simply because there would have to have been more to tell than the picnics in the park and "I'm not ready to let this go" dialogue! :) Why is Sam always left out of the bi-sexual discussions? Ah, he's not their ship - kind of proves the point again really doesn't it?

Slash fiction, be it romantic or not, to me has nothing at all to do with the canon of the show, it's fantasy, it's not forwarding gay rights and I'd rather it stay in fandom. To read it or write it, you've already probably changed the sexual orientation of the characters in your head, and that fine, that's great, that's how fantasy and fan fiction works, but you don't have to change the show to enjoy it. I'm sure we don't need to be constantly reminded of our obsessions by the 'playing gay' at cons. I still say many of the cast and crew don't really "get" slash fiction and what it means to us in fandom.

Continues......

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