(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, it's actually pretty accurate depiction of a typical straight guy. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but, you know, accurate.
Absolutely agree - the world is in reality not the well adjusted place we'd like fandom or show to be

The brothers-in-arms totally fits my opinion of Dean and Cas too, especially Dean's upbringing being like a soldier - never leave anyone behind.

Actually, my problem with D/C dynamic is that Dean seems to mostly want to use Cas's power, so, this turning purgatory upside down to find Castiel plot line works for me in that it shows Dean is not that user who uses.


Ah, that's very interesting and I'd never really thought about that before, but I have often thought that there are aspects of Dean's treatment of Castiel that verge on the derisive and that has made me uncomfortable, for I think, those very same reasons, something inside me doesn't like to think of Dean treating a friend like that. Dean though has many facets to his character that are distinctly unsavoury, why that one bothers me I don't know. Maybe, I look at it from the shippers pov with shock "you think this is love?" and I don't see it, I see borderline abuse sometimes, so no, I don't think it will ever be canon either.

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

"Abuse" is the word that I really really want to use, but did not, for reasons. hee.

You know, I think the Winchesters' relationships with Cas are very interesting. With Sam, he first thought of angels as those higher power for the "good", and he was impressed and all. Then when he realized that they are indeed "dicks with wings", he really really kind of hold them in contempt, almost. Then, he realized that angels were God's creatures, and he was more or less quicker to forgive, 'cause it's Cas. It's almost like a child relationship with his parents.

With Dean, it's quite different. He started off suspicious and defiant, 'cause Cas did threaten that he could throw him back to the pit. It seemed to me he did not differentiate one angel from another; then he saw the crack in Cas's armor, and used it to save humanity, sort of. Coming season 5, there was team freewill. Only he was getting depressed and almost budged under the pressure. So Cas's "I fell for you!" was more heartbreaking in the sense that a solider was betrayed by the commander than shippy, anyway, that is my read on it. Coming season 6, did Dean say something close to "if you cannot help me with Sam, you are no use to me."? I remember feeling kind of appalled by the statement, though my unfair wincest heart was fluttering happily. For some reason, Dean did not see Castiel as vulnerable, in a sense, Castiel is this parental figure who can take anything from him.

Of course, Castiel went on to break Sam's wall. The most interesting turn of events in season 7 is that Sam has forgiven long before Dean did. Then, the sense I get is that in purgatory, Dean and Cas were on a more equal footing, and Dean took on the responsibility of getting him out of there.

Anyway, I kind of lost my train of thought here. So, going to get the kid down for the day. hee.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

No,no, that's a very good train of thought.

Honestly, if they really concentrated on how BOTH brothers react to this sometimes strong and often floundering but always complicated relationship with this angel, Castiel I'd be a lot happier, because the idea of like you say "angels of the lord" appearing to a couple of demon hunters from Kansas, should be far more fascinating than it is being portrayed.

I think there is much to be learnt about both brothers in the way they interact now with Castiel if they'd just delve a little deeper. To me it's maybe the surface that some are interpreting as "shippy"? The silly filler stuff as I call it - and I've never found any of it to be anywhere in the realms of "romantic" - I guess I like the fucked up, often bitter, and confusing juggling acts far more. But holy shit I can't imagine that's the beginning of a beautiful and loving relationship that these pushers seem to imply they want - hah, I watch a different show though than some shippers, I'm sure I do!

Bring on the complicated fucked up, I say. Fandom can and often does ships like that, show won't ever.

It's been great chatting with you!

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

It's been great chatting with you too! my friends only laughed when I told them that I watch this show of two ghost hunters; and darling hubby always refers to it as "your two pretty guys show", sad face.

I like your "when angel of the lord meets demon hunters from Kansas" idea, that would be really fun to dig into (I can imagine Uriel goes: mudmonkeys; and Castiel goes: I want to observe the mudmonkeys. hee.). Though, I do not really like the vessel story line, it felt kind of ... contrived; and the parallel between Michael/Lucifer and Dean/Sam, not impressed. ha, guess I've never been impressed by parallels, be it canon or fannon. As heroic adventure stories go, I like Samwise's version: the hero stumbled into one, and somehow made it through. But then again, SPN was setting up for destiny against freewill, which is a philosophical question that I do not want the show to delve into, 'cause I tune in to be entertained, mostly, but not to have to think about, you know, deep thoughts. So there is that.

I honestly have never cared much for Castiel. His fall did not punch me in the gut like Sam's did. I mean, I don't FEEL for him. I wonder how much of that was intentional, 'cause how do we mere humans even begin to understand a creature that has lasted since the beginning of time. Therein lays my problem with any romantic relationship between Castiel and Dean, and any human for that matter. Humans are just way too transient and probably, really, pretty mudmonkey-ish to angels. And all that snide, threat, plea and silent treatment, probably, maybe, two guys (term loosely used) working on working things out; beginning of a beautiful relationship, I don't see it either.

Come to think of it, I think I don't really ship any ship. I ship wincest for the greater good. 'Cause they always always put each other as their number 1 priority, which is just grossly unfair to any other person who has the misfortune to be their spouse. That, and I am shallow, they are so pretty together. Sassy I can get on board, 'cause there is that basic understanding between them, if I handwave the long-life of an angel thing.

Sorry to word vomit at you. Yeah, I just really don't have anyone around me to talk about this; and I didn't realize I have this many thoughts about it.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I've pretty much stopped talking about show in my journal, most of my flisties have left and as there are quite a lot of things that have happened this season that I can't come to terms with I usually end up really angry after every episode, not much use in that!

However, this post has really intrigued me and makes me more fond of the show again and it's been a real treat.

Ah, angels.

The vessels thing, well, in a way it was interesting, to differentiate between a demon inhabiting your body without consent to angels needing consent and Lucifer being an angel needed consent, but then they threw Ruby in a dead body at Sam and Anna in her own body but without her grace at Dean, so they could each fuck a demon and an angel and the whole thing ended up one big mess, when I could stop laughing that is! I never did understand how Anna got another body from somewhere that was exactly like her last one...I think! And this show really does consent issues very badly.

I'm another that has no "feelings" at all towards Castiel, I admit I loved his introduction and I loved the whole angels are just as dickish as demons idea. But feel for him? Nope, Two guys working on a relationship? Haha- opps, Nope. I've gone from liking Cas to being ambivalent, to raging that often he's nothing but a time waster. Finally had it over the "leave Sam's soul in the cage Dean, he's too damaged now and here's this nice fresh body that looks just like him" UHG! I drew my line about him then and I just can't any longer. You know, I did wonder for a long time if he even went into the cage for Sam at all? Maybe he just had a Sam body made by Anna's friend to hunt the Alphas for Crowley?

There's so much I want to know, if the angels use souls as power sources, then is that all they see humans as? There is no heaven, just a power plant? Hmmmm...sometimes it's like reading a book and finding your copy has been butchered, turn the page only to find you're suddenly in another plot altogether!

This year has been bad, so much of the basic foundations of my understanding have been murdered and trivialized, I'm waiting for Thursday to see if any of it can make any sense that I can live with. I'll be checking in here with ash though, I might surprise myself and have something to say!

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

yeah, my flist has thinned out a little too, it's not that long a list to start with.

Angels and souls, I don't know if Sera Gamble and Jeremy Carver had a discussion about soul power, so that the show would do anything about it. Now that you've pointed it out, the statement from Samidriel "we're shepherd of those people" took on a whole new meaning, like literally angels are waiting for the harvest season.

Yeah, that logic of leaving Sam's soul in the cage is epic... something, fundamentally, seems like only Dean gets the idiocy of it. I kind of feel bad for Robo!Sam though, 'cause, as we are talking about consent issues, he clearly resented having his own soul shoved back in there. But, the body had been the home of that soul since forever; but the brain really really did not want the soul back.... all these things are giving me a headache, I will just stop here. hee.

Ah, it's Wed again, we'll know pretty soon how the season is going to end. Equal parts of excited and nervous.