(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[destina.livejournal.com]

I think if the show were going to go there, they'd have gone there way back around the time they went to the 'blow me' and 'not for nothing but the last time someone looked at me like that I got laid' place. But mostly I don't believe the actors (Jensen, actually) or the producers have the balls. Zero balls are had. (I WOULD LIKE TO BE PROVEN WRONG.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

This was my point exactly in the recent discussion I had. If this were on a cable network then they might have the balls to go there. As it is, and the show has been well established within certain boundaries, I doubt they'd "risk" breaking them.

And yes, there were certainly more opportunities in past episode to take that direction if they were going to. I honestly think they just like teasing fandom (which I feel has now backfired on them considering the recent con kerfuffle).

Happy to be proved wrong. And in fact someone suggested that it could exist in a meta episode - which, hmmmm,....coooould possibly happen.

[chemm80]

I agree with Destina: they won't go there. Even if the writers had the cojones (a possibility), the network would never go for it. And if the network somehow unlaced their corsets enough to do it, after seeing the Jensen wank in that last con (and watching Jensen for the last several years, both on and off screen), I think that's one thing Jensen would have a hard time pulling off. I think he's a superb actor, but he's got issues with the gay thing.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. I pretty convinced they won't go there either. It's curious to me that they create the subtext but then don't want to reeeeally address it. I mean, I don't expect the actors to address it, in terms of knowing what direction TPTB are taking the characters, but if they keep "teasing" or throwing in comments like "get out of my ass", then it would be good to see them be willing to talk about it.

And if Jensen isn't on board then that would definitely be the end of that I imagine. Perhaps if Jensen went into the project with that knowledge about his character it might be a different story perhaps.

[chemm80]

It's curious to me that they create the subtext but then don't want to reeeeally address it. I mean, I don't expect the actors to address it, in terms of knowing what direction TPTB are taking the characters, but if they keep "teasing" or throwing in comments like "get out of my ass", then it would be good to see them be willing to talk about it.

Honestly, yes. TPTB act like 12-year-old boys when it comes to this stuff, frankly: giggling behind their hands in some kind of ridiculous game of gay chicken until it's suggested that where there's smoke there might just be a smidgeon of flame, and then they're aghast. And realistically, straight boys do that and think it's funny. For instance, "Damn, don't I even get a kiss on the neck first? A reacharound?" are direct quotes from some of my bandmates when they're joking around with each other and I'm 99% sure that they're all three straight as rulers. None of those comments on the show—"The last time anyone looked at me like that I got laid", for example— necessarily means that anyone thinks Dean is in love with Cas, or even that Dean is bisexual. But we could argue that all day. That's the charitable interpretation, believe it or not, that they're just being unwittingly insensitive, which is bad enough, especially in an industry with so many LGBTQ members. A more cynical take on it is that it is queerbaiting and fanbaiting: it gets the fans' attention so they keep doing it. I can't help but think that non-fandom viewers are wondering what the shit is going on with some of those comments.

Jensen's issues are in some ways a separate matter. It's quite clear that he's uncomfortable discussing it in a convention setting. His reasons for that are much less clear. Maybe he's just weird about "the gay thing" because he grew up in Texas. (God knows that I know how gay issues are treated in this part of the country.) Maybe he's actually gay or bisexual and just deeply closeted, in which case, no wonder he doesn't want to discuss it. Or--and this seems most likely to me--maybe he just wants to let the writers decide where the character is going without any distortions introduced by what he might say, or the fans' responses to that. The writers could take a lesson from that, actually.

But returning to your original question, no I don't think it will ever become canon. Would I want it to? See el1ie's response downthread. She's hit the nail on the head, for my money.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* and thank you for putting it so eloquently.

I can't help but think that non-fandom viewers are wondering what the shit is going on with some of those comments.

I often think that (and particularly thought so during the Monster at the end of this Book" episode). I'd imagine a..."errr, what? what's happening now and how is that relevant to the story?"

I haven't given Jensen's reaction a lot of thought, but my first instinct was that he's just run out of ways of answering the question. I know it keeps coming up and I think they answer it the best they can but there's only so many ways of saying "I don't know". There could be deeper issues there (some of which we may never know), but I suspect he just doesn't have an answer. (though he probably doesn't have an answer to if the amulet will be back, which I am sure is asked a lot also).

And I'm thinking the latest kerfuffle at the con might be a wake up call to the writers. They might, finally, address this in the writers room and decide to drop the "jokes". Concentrating on clear directions for the characters would be kinda awesome.

And yes Ellie did hit the nail on the head. Totally agree. :)

[chemm80]

And I'm thinking the latest kerfuffle at the con might be a wake up call to the writers. They might, finally, address this in the writers room and decide to drop the "jokes". Concentrating on clear directions for the characters would be kinda awesome.

Well that's just it: as someone elsewhere in this thread said, "Shit or get off the pot." You can't have it both ways.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I haven't given Jensen's reaction a lot of thought, but my first instinct was that he's just run out of ways of answering the question.

I think there's another factor at work here too and that's Jensen's instinctive diplomacy, as much as I'm convinced none of the cast and crew really, really GET fandom, and that there's quite a few of them that don't understand all the connotations that come along with the term "destiel" Jensen knows that whatever answer he comes up with on this delicate subject it's going to piss off a whole load people, because there is no way to answer that isn't going to be seen or contorted to either support one group and shut another down.

Added to the fact that I've watched him on screen doing sex scenes and they just make the guy uncomfortable, how on earth should he have to have that sort of conversation in a room full of screaming women and young, some very young girls? Why should he? Fandom is a very free place that encourages open talk and quite honestly for a lot of people these sort of things aren't discussed around the family dinner table - it's just something that isn't done by many people at all in a huge crowd of strangers. Fandom forgets that, we talk, we know each other, we feel connected by our love of show and porn - but he's not one of us.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I've seen some interesting discussions on this issue also. And I think there are many ways to come at it, but essentially yes. I have a feeling they know what's out there, but it's just not part of their lives. They don't bury in it the way we do...;) It's such a delicate issue that it's probably better not to tackle it at all - hoping to avoid the controversy. Rather ironic that by banning the question (and then it being asked anyway) it created even more controversy than it might have done if they'd not said anything.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Rather ironic that by banning the question (and then it being asked anyway) it created even more controversy than it might have done if they'd not said anything.

To be honest I've seen so many variations on what happened I still don't know if the questions were banned before hand, were screened, or even actually heard. I've seen comments that only slash is ever shut down, that the questioner was jeered for being bi (that one was untrue from the vid I saw) - it's like eye witnesses at an accident, no one commenting even if actually present can possible distance themselves from their own personal baggage and it just dissolved into one huge gigantic ugly wank.

I'm still on the side of keeping all aspects of fandom in fandom, I don't really want cast and crew, writers and 'special people' traipsing all over my safe place - but I'm old school in that way and I do understand that things in fandom are changing and some are for the better.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and I am totally guilty of taking it at face value that that request was made. It possibly wasn't and from someone who just commented on that very thing, she said she was there and hadn't heard that. Maybe it's in the question screening process.? No idea. It probably all come about to stir things up. Which it certainly did.

And yep. I have no desire for anyone in the show become part of the fandom. I'm sure they keep an eye and I like that occasionally some of them will take an interest in some of the fandom works about the place (I know the wiki gets good show people support) but as far as slash or conversations or trying to meet our wishes goes...nope. Create the show and we'll take from it what we can. ;))

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

A more cynical take on it is that it is queerbaiting and fanbaiting

I don't think it is queerbaiting -- I think it is exactly the same as creating the character of Becky as a big nod to fans. Lots of female fans were upset by her as well. The wink and the nod did not play exactly the way the writers may have anticipated in some quarters -- same with the language you referenced above.

For another thing, that is when the show was being helmed by Sera Gamble, and that is not incidental. That seemed to be more of her personal style.

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Can someone let me in on what happened in the last con? Don't follow these things and am only hearing about it now.

Warning: depressing

[chemm80]

Try this link: http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1299675.html

Related post: http://www.dailydot.com/society/jensen-ackles-homophobia-supernatural-fandom

Re: Warning: depressing

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey...just wanted to say thanks for sharing those links. I hadn't seen that second article and it was interesting to read a lot there that has been teased out in this discussion.

It is depressing and it makes me sad for my show.

Re: Warning: depressing

[chemm80]

Also this quote:

Dean is a manly heterosexual guy, he wasn't flirting back to aaron, it was just a comic moment #jibcon

...(which I've seen multiple times on Tumblr since I left my other comments) makes me think that Jensen is probably just a product of his Bible Belt raising, rather than a closeted queer, but it's still rather insensitive, especially for someone who's spent as long in show business as he has. Since, apparently, he doesn't get that "manly" and "heterosexual" are not the same thing, nor are "homosexual" and "masculine" mutually exclusive, and that's just for starters.