(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

And for me, it's not that directly romantic ... if not for fandom pursuing the notion of 'Destiel', I'd not have thought it that substantial at all.

That's why I said (somewhere in all this) that your own perception is your own reality. We get pretty insular sometimes in fandom, hanging with folks that adhere to our own beliefs. And sometimes that means we might miss the Big Picture, by focusing on the smaller details.

I'm not saying there's definitely NOT sparks between Cas and Dean (because I believe our sexuality is a sliding continuum, not set in stone) but I don't think Dean would ever start something sexual with Cas. And that's just my take on the character.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Fair point, we obviously have different ways of looking at it.

As I said, I'm going to be looking for something big in 8.23. Again, it may be something debatable, but if there's nothing, then my views may change on this entire season.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Hey, debatable is okay!

Out of curiosity and in absolutely sincerity, what would you like to see happen in 8.23?

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Totally! I think I'm just used to Tumblr now where you never know when you'll be shouted at. I was just thinking how nice it was to be able to have a conversation about this without a descent into wrangling and arguing about this point and that. :)

I don't know, really, but I guess there's a conversation Dean and Castiel have to have. They've had moments in S8 when they've almost had a conversation, like when Castiel admitted that he was afraid that he might kill himself. But they're interrupted. Repeatedly. And now they're getting in their own way, unable to articulate how they feel - Cas is confused, Dean is angry. Cas' attempt to make amends by buying Dean's favourite things was just the sweetest thing (not necessarily romantic but I read it as so). But it's not what they need.

I don't necessarily expect everything to be made clear in 8.23 but I do hope that there'll be some indication that will at least tell me whether or not to hope over the hiatus, you know? The short hiatuses have been bad enough. So I'm just hoping for a conversation, basically. Though I have found that my expectations are rarely met, but they've thought of some different way to do things instead that I often prefer, so who knows? :)

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

"... I guess there's a conversation Dean and Castiel have to have."

Yes, 200%! And I dunno, it could happen in the season finale. We shall see! *fistbump*

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Here's hoping! Because those boys need to work something out, whatever it is! *fistbump back*

Also it's such a pleasure having conversations in comment threads rather than the endless reblogging of Tumblr. Yay LJ. :)

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Me too-->"And for me, it's not that directly romantic ... if not for fandom pursuing the notion of 'Destiel', I'd not have thought it that substantial at all."

Also this, ==>"I'm not saying there's definitely NOT sparks between Cas and Dean (because I believe our sexuality is a sliding continuum, not set in stone) but I don't think Dean would ever start something sexual with Cas. And that's just my take on the character."

Actually I think Dean (and Jensen) has sparks with a lot of the male characters. But I don't read that as "sexual" per se. It some form of chemistry, but more of the charismatic variety. Dean is the guy other guys want to be and want to hang out with and the guy that women want to be with. However, given how Dean was raised (with only a father and then only a brother), and in the environment of hunting, I believe Dean responds best to other men - because it was mostly males he has associated with his whole life. When he does respond to women, it's very "protective" oriented (even when it may also be sexual and/or romantic.) He softens. He caresses. He goes slow. But with men? Dean displays power and strength. (Honestly, I'm not even sure exactly what my point is.)

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Your read of Dean is spot-on. It also explains that if he did feel sexual attraction to another guy, it would be really difficult for him to express it, given his upbringing.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I was thinking more about this. Not only is Dean's response to women more protective-oriented. It's also, perhaps, like a little boy. I.e., mommy abandonment issues. He plays with women. I don't mean like "toying with women's emotions" (although that might be an unintended consequence), but I mean like the scene in S3 where he's under a death sentence and he's jumping around like a little boy when he's with those two women (twins?) in that motel room. He frolics, I guess is the best word I can think of. He's *serious* about his relationship with the important men in his life. But he soften and plays if he's sexually or romantically involved with someone (up til now in explicit canon, women; perhaps in the past there may have been bi incidents, but nothing explicitly acknowledged at this point.) In fact the only other person I think Dean has softened and (tried) to play with, is Sam. He tried with Cas in Free to be You and Me, but to me that was an awkward attempt to fill the gap left by what Dean felt was Sam's abandonment. (Again, Dean? with the abandonment issues? lol.) The only woman I'm not sure we saw him "play" with was Lisa. He made Lisa an important relationship in his life. Therefore "frolicking" didn't seem to be on the agenda. And again (remembering my own S/D OTP goggles) Lisa was a substitute for Sam.

I guess I admit that to me Dean's most important relationships are NOT those that are sexual. I think Dean can have a very deep and meaningful relationship with Cas which has nothing to do with romance or sex (or even the thought of it.) Dean *loves* people deeply. He is loyal to people. Those are his two main qualities. And when others betray those two qualities, he reacts deeply and illogically; i.e., inconsistently as in throwing up to whomever has recently betrayed him that this other person has *always* stood by him (despite history saying otherwise.)

Went off on a tangent there.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Tangent or no, there's a lot of validity to what you're saying.

The human animal is not a logical, static critter. I really look forward to character evolution, no matter how it plays out! (As long as it MAKES SENSE. Please, not with the fanservicing...)

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think we fans expect story characters to act with more consistency than real people do in real life.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

HA! Ain't that the truth ...

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

I love how you expressed this. Everything you say here rings true to me.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

It's been such a very long time since we've seen Dean show any real interest in a romantic relationship. I find that more telling than any amount of nudge nudge wink wink from the show's producers. As much as I doubt that the show would ever go there and explore Dean seriously as something other than 100% heterosexual, the fact that his sexuality has clearly changed, and that he's seemingly given up any idea of pursuing another committed relationship like what he had with Lisa , leaves the door open to Dean/Castiel in my mind more than any amount of supposed flirting, loaded stares, etc. (which frankly I have never really seen).

I was very disappointed that Dean's emotional crash in S7 never came to anything, but I have enjoyed his emotional honesty in S8 a great deal. Regardless of the problems I might have with S8, I'm intrigued (as always) by the subtleties of what's not said overtly about Dean. I think sometimes, the writers don't give any (or enough) thought to him, but the very fact that the emotional throughline of the show depends on him so heavily means that there's always a lot of rich material to read between the lines where Dean's concerned. "Pac Man Fever" was particularly good for this. And as much as I disliked Benny (sorry, terrible accent is terrible)—I think it's fascinating that a vampire, of all people, taught Dean to trust somebody again. As with so many other facets of Dean's emotional landscape, I find it more compelling because they never stated that outright in the show.

I would not be that shocked if they somehow made one-sided D/C canon. They've skated close to that at times. But I would be shocked if they had Dean return the feelings. And I would probably pass out if they ever convinced Jensen Ackles to kiss a dude on the CW. I think they'd have to pay him way more than they probably do.