curled around these images

It's a difficult thing to answer. I am very much following Destiel on Tumblr and I think it's so easy to be persuaded more and more that Destiel is possible when you keep reading posts that say just that.

But I am convinced that narratively they must have some resolution to the problems Dean and Castiel have been having lately. Their argument in the last episode was an argument between people who love each other but are just failing to adequately communicate; even Sam knew it and coughed uncomfortably to break the tension. So my jury is out until 8.23. I think we should have a solid idea one way or the other then.

Because for all the jokes they've had about Dean/Cas in the show, most of them happened before season 8. Season 8 has suggested something far more serious between them. There are also something like 8 or 9 examples of human/supernatural relationships in S8, including in 8.22 with the Nephelim being the result of a human/angel relationship. That the pattern of human/supernatural relationships culminates in an human/angel relationship doesn't seem to me like a nod-and-wink way of including Destiel subtext. It strikes me as a pattern that has some meaning. Put it together with the several indications this season that Dean may not be as straight as previously thought--his stumbling interaction with Aaron being the most obvious moment--and it just seems like it's a narrative thread that should not be left hanging, unaddressed. I also think that while Jensen does seem to have problems talking about Dean/Cas, he has no problems playing Dean's attraction to Cas. This comparison of scenes always makes me laugh, though at the same time I'm not sure the scene with Cas is entirely intended to be a joke.

I do feel that if they don't intend to go canon, then they need to stop with the subtext. It's cheap at this point. Plus, it's hardly new--so many shows and films these days have intentional homoerotic subtext. It's time to either commit or fully back away, and to make that decision clear to fans.

One thing I am very curious about is the extent to which TPTB, whoever exactly they are, might feel about it. From interviews about This Means War, I have a feeling McG would be on board, but I have no clue what kind of interest he even takes in Supernatural or what kind of say he would have. I think Jeremy Carver has said something before about how he thinks there should be more m/m romance on TV. The CW people? I have no clue. But whatever the situation is, I hope that we at least have an indication in the finale.

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"I do feel that if they don't intend to go canon, then they need to stop with the subtext."

I concur. As my dad would say: shit or get off the pot.

By the same token, you also find what you're looking for. If you're looking for homoerotic subtext, you'll find it even where none was intended. Your perception is your own reality. (Funnily, that's been the Season Eight's theme. Hmm!)

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Tbh, no one could convince me that the subtext this season isn't in the text rather than in my head. The question is, what are they going to do with it?

I agree with your dad, he puts it well. :)

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And for me, it's not that directly romantic ... if not for fandom pursuing the notion of 'Destiel', I'd not have thought it that substantial at all.

That's why I said (somewhere in all this) that your own perception is your own reality. We get pretty insular sometimes in fandom, hanging with folks that adhere to our own beliefs. And sometimes that means we might miss the Big Picture, by focusing on the smaller details.

I'm not saying there's definitely NOT sparks between Cas and Dean (because I believe our sexuality is a sliding continuum, not set in stone) but I don't think Dean would ever start something sexual with Cas. And that's just my take on the character.

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Fair point, we obviously have different ways of looking at it.

As I said, I'm going to be looking for something big in 8.23. Again, it may be something debatable, but if there's nothing, then my views may change on this entire season.

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Hey, debatable is okay!

Out of curiosity and in absolutely sincerity, what would you like to see happen in 8.23?

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Totally! I think I'm just used to Tumblr now where you never know when you'll be shouted at. I was just thinking how nice it was to be able to have a conversation about this without a descent into wrangling and arguing about this point and that. :)

I don't know, really, but I guess there's a conversation Dean and Castiel have to have. They've had moments in S8 when they've almost had a conversation, like when Castiel admitted that he was afraid that he might kill himself. But they're interrupted. Repeatedly. And now they're getting in their own way, unable to articulate how they feel - Cas is confused, Dean is angry. Cas' attempt to make amends by buying Dean's favourite things was just the sweetest thing (not necessarily romantic but I read it as so). But it's not what they need.

I don't necessarily expect everything to be made clear in 8.23 but I do hope that there'll be some indication that will at least tell me whether or not to hope over the hiatus, you know? The short hiatuses have been bad enough. So I'm just hoping for a conversation, basically. Though I have found that my expectations are rarely met, but they've thought of some different way to do things instead that I often prefer, so who knows? :)

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"... I guess there's a conversation Dean and Castiel have to have."

Yes, 200%! And I dunno, it could happen in the season finale. We shall see! *fistbump*

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Here's hoping! Because those boys need to work something out, whatever it is! *fistbump back*

Also it's such a pleasure having conversations in comment threads rather than the endless reblogging of Tumblr. Yay LJ. :)

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Me too-->"And for me, it's not that directly romantic ... if not for fandom pursuing the notion of 'Destiel', I'd not have thought it that substantial at all."

Also this, ==>"I'm not saying there's definitely NOT sparks between Cas and Dean (because I believe our sexuality is a sliding continuum, not set in stone) but I don't think Dean would ever start something sexual with Cas. And that's just my take on the character."

Actually I think Dean (and Jensen) has sparks with a lot of the male characters. But I don't read that as "sexual" per se. It some form of chemistry, but more of the charismatic variety. Dean is the guy other guys want to be and want to hang out with and the guy that women want to be with. However, given how Dean was raised (with only a father and then only a brother), and in the environment of hunting, I believe Dean responds best to other men - because it was mostly males he has associated with his whole life. When he does respond to women, it's very "protective" oriented (even when it may also be sexual and/or romantic.) He softens. He caresses. He goes slow. But with men? Dean displays power and strength. (Honestly, I'm not even sure exactly what my point is.)

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Your read of Dean is spot-on. It also explains that if he did feel sexual attraction to another guy, it would be really difficult for him to express it, given his upbringing.

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I was thinking more about this. Not only is Dean's response to women more protective-oriented. It's also, perhaps, like a little boy. I.e., mommy abandonment issues. He plays with women. I don't mean like "toying with women's emotions" (although that might be an unintended consequence), but I mean like the scene in S3 where he's under a death sentence and he's jumping around like a little boy when he's with those two women (twins?) in that motel room. He frolics, I guess is the best word I can think of. He's *serious* about his relationship with the important men in his life. But he soften and plays if he's sexually or romantically involved with someone (up til now in explicit canon, women; perhaps in the past there may have been bi incidents, but nothing explicitly acknowledged at this point.) In fact the only other person I think Dean has softened and (tried) to play with, is Sam. He tried with Cas in Free to be You and Me, but to me that was an awkward attempt to fill the gap left by what Dean felt was Sam's abandonment. (Again, Dean? with the abandonment issues? lol.) The only woman I'm not sure we saw him "play" with was Lisa. He made Lisa an important relationship in his life. Therefore "frolicking" didn't seem to be on the agenda. And again (remembering my own S/D OTP goggles) Lisa was a substitute for Sam.

I guess I admit that to me Dean's most important relationships are NOT those that are sexual. I think Dean can have a very deep and meaningful relationship with Cas which has nothing to do with romance or sex (or even the thought of it.) Dean *loves* people deeply. He is loyal to people. Those are his two main qualities. And when others betray those two qualities, he reacts deeply and illogically; i.e., inconsistently as in throwing up to whomever has recently betrayed him that this other person has *always* stood by him (despite history saying otherwise.)

Went off on a tangent there.

Edited Date: 2013-05-11 07:06 pm (UTC)

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Tangent or no, there's a lot of validity to what you're saying.

The human animal is not a logical, static critter. I really look forward to character evolution, no matter how it plays out! (As long as it MAKES SENSE. Please, not with the fanservicing...)

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Sometimes I think we fans expect story characters to act with more consistency than real people do in real life.

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HA! Ain't that the truth ...

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killabeez.livejournal.com

I love how you expressed this. Everything you say here rings true to me.

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Thanks!

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killabeez.livejournal.com

It's been such a very long time since we've seen Dean show any real interest in a romantic relationship. I find that more telling than any amount of nudge nudge wink wink from the show's producers. As much as I doubt that the show would ever go there and explore Dean seriously as something other than 100% heterosexual, the fact that his sexuality has clearly changed, and that he's seemingly given up any idea of pursuing another committed relationship like what he had with Lisa , leaves the door open to Dean/Castiel in my mind more than any amount of supposed flirting, loaded stares, etc. (which frankly I have never really seen).

I was very disappointed that Dean's emotional crash in S7 never came to anything, but I have enjoyed his emotional honesty in S8 a great deal. Regardless of the problems I might have with S8, I'm intrigued (as always) by the subtleties of what's not said overtly about Dean. I think sometimes, the writers don't give any (or enough) thought to him, but the very fact that the emotional throughline of the show depends on him so heavily means that there's always a lot of rich material to read between the lines where Dean's concerned. "Pac Man Fever" was particularly good for this. And as much as I disliked Benny (sorry, terrible accent is terrible)—I think it's fascinating that a vampire, of all people, taught Dean to trust somebody again. As with so many other facets of Dean's emotional landscape, I find it more compelling because they never stated that outright in the show.

I would not be that shocked if they somehow made one-sided D/C canon. They've skated close to that at times. But I would be shocked if they had Dean return the feelings. And I would probably pass out if they ever convinced Jensen Ackles to kiss a dude on the CW. I think they'd have to pay him way more than they probably do.

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I seem to be agreeing with you a lot on here --> "By the same token, you also find what you're looking for. If you're looking for homoerotic subtext, you'll find it even where none was intended. Your perception is your own reality. (Funnily, that's been the Season Eight's theme. Hmm!)"

I find the whole discussion interesting just because of perception. In my profession I have to present information in multiple ways because people just see things differently and that's just the way it is. But despite me knowing this as a truism, I still struggle because I just don't *see* this D/C (or maybe I don't *feel* it?). Again, as I said somewhere else in this discussion (which I'm enjoying), ships are personal preferences and there is no wrong ship.

I'm thinking about the whole fan-service/queer-baiting debate. While I could see I guess that perhaps they *are* going too far with that. I also think it's all in fun with the *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* aspect to it. I also can respect and see why some/many(?) would think enough is enough if they really aren't going anywhere with it. I grew up with brothers, no sisters. All my best friends were guys as I was growing up. And this was just they way they acted. I never thought anything of it. Although (to perhaps contradict myself) I admit that recently (like with the Cas shopping for groceries segment) I think the writers water down characters for pure fanservice moments. And it detracts from the strength of those characters (again, my opinion only.)

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I felt a lot of fanservicing going on the last episode, all 'round. It was kinda ham-fisted, to be perfectly honest. I've always been a huge proponent of the writers telling the story they want to tell. Maybe that's why I get a little disgruntled when fans try to push an agenda, any agenda.

I work as a professional creative, though, so I understand it when a client wants me to paint something a certain way. They're paying my check. But do we, as a vast fandom, have the right to insist characters are played the way we want them to be? Especially when it's hardly a consensus?

I haven't liked everything about the show, by any stretch, but I respect the show runner's right to guide the project the way he/she decides.

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I agree. It's sometimes fun to have a show acknowledge something fandom wants. But in the long run (as I think we've seen in recent years on this show), it dilutes the story. I think it was Kripke who once said that he tried to stay away from a lot of online fan conversations because he didn't want it to unduly influence his storytelling (but perhaps I've misremembered and it was some other writer/showrunner who said that.)

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