(no subject)

[ash48]

I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

[Poll #1913053]

Comments

[rhymephile.livejournal.com]

Yes, THIS. It's been co-opted by Tumblr and that's what you have to label everything now. Bah, I hate it. We old-school shippers only used the "/" back in the day. I'm old.

More on the topic, as a member of the LGBT community, it would be amazingly *earth-shattering* to see a male character previously only seen as straight come out as bisexual on a network television show (despite its relative small viewership in the grand scheme of things). Now, Joss Whedon did it with Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but to be honest it's more acceptable to the viewing audience because she was female.

To have Show take a step to FINALLY follow through with all this wink-wink and double entendres and outright "You're confusing me with the other angel who's in love with you" stuff would be revelatory. I'm sick and tired of the writers (and the actors at cons) constantly jokingly referring to it, when I don't think they understand how important it would be to those of us in the community. It's not a joke. It's not funny. It's not cute. I wish they would stop playing it to the audience as such.

If it was never planned to have Dean come out as bisexual, fine. If that's the case, then they need to STOP with all the dialogue that can be interpreted in expressly gay ways for two male characters to be saying to each other and define the Dean/Cas relationship as strictly familial. Stop playing to your audience of teenage shippers and winking at the relationship. It pisses me off.

As a Dean/Cas shipper, I don't think it will ever be canon, because I don't think the writers would ever have enough balls to pursue it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

This. And exactly this as to why I was interested in having the discussion in the first place.

There's a serious note here and that is regarding something I have recently come across and that's the notion of queer baiting. This is actually a thing and it concerns me (yes, I am slow on the uptake). I've done quite a bit of reading on this now and many of the arguments comes out of all the evidence in the show - and there's lots of it. I'm trying to figure out what exactly is going on there. Is it deliberately baiting the audience because it's fun? (for them) - or because there IS something to read into it or is it there so people can read into it what they will (trying to please all sections of the audience).

I'm sick and tired of the writers (and the actors at cons) constantly jokingly referring to it,

I been watching some of the recent NJ con stuff and the introduction to Jensen was from Richard saying "I've had fun being in Jensen's pants today". This after requests not to ask D/C questions. I don't know. I'm trying to make sense of it and as much as the poll is light hearted, I think there's some deeper questions to be asked and topics to be discussed.

I think it would be absolutely incredible if they did decide to pursue Dean being bi-sexual. It would take a LOT of balls as you say and I'm 99.9% sure it will never happen. More than anything I think they do need to stop the suggestions if they don't plan to do anything with it. If they chose to address it at some point though - even to say this is a possibility - then maybe it's valid.

Ooh, and there I've said some stuff. Thanks for your points. It's a lot of why I got interested in this topic in the first place.

(and sorry to use "destiel". I wasn't sure it that was the accept term now or if only some shippers have adopted it. Looks like the latter).
xx

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

Can I jump in here to ask that if there is no Dean/Cas or just even Dean as bi and attracted to whoever, what does that do to all the gay innuendo? I'm trying really hard to make sense of this and don't come at it with any idea of what is "right". I also don't have anywhere else to ask a question like this. The amount of trash-talking that appears to go on around sexual orientation on this show has bothered me for a while. The way it's used by the actors toward each other and in the gag reel is confusing too. As a mostly clueless straight girl, it sometimes comes across no differently than if a kid is being picked on in school for a perceived sexual orientation and that's classed as bullying. Other times, it's like math nerds picking on other math nerds and that's ok because they're all math nerds. Why is it acceptible here in the show's dialog if it is bullying and not other places...bah, this is even hard to explain the question without feeling like I'm going to use the wrong language and end up being really insensitive.

Is there a difference in the amount of insult in a statement like the one about "looked at me like that, I got laid" when said by a straight guy to another straight guy than if it's said by a gay or bi man to another or even more confusing, straight to gay or gay to straight. Throw in the fact that Cas has no physical body of his own and doesn't even know much about sex in general and the whole thing just becomes more confusing. Then, there's all the jokes about Sam and Dean being taken as a gay couple. Then you add in the idea of fan service and I don't know what to think.

I hang out on LJ where people are pretty open in talking about all kinds of things related to gender, sexual orientation and race and I'm still confused and bothered by how the show handles these things. How does it come across to someone who has never even had the idea that any of this could even be negative? I also hang out in a community that picks up on subtext and runs with it. Plenty of viewers don't see that at all and would probably be really taken aback by having any of that become canon.

I also wouldn't trust most of the current group of writers to be able to handle a coming out story with any kind of sensitivity. They can't even get on the same page about whether Cas is the bee-man or an angel with a millenia of human observation who can't figure out that cracking an egg in a grocery store is not a good thing.

Setting all that stuff aside, if the show is getting this much attention based on perceived UST, why should they change that when cementing those relationships one way or another will alienate a chunk of their viewers?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun,

It's an interesting point isn't it? And you're pretty much pondering a lot of what I have been pondering.

It's IS tricky to navigate around what might be considered offensive and insensitive when discussing - hence being worried about posting such a discussion in the first place.

And I don't know where that all sits. I'd like to say it's just fun - I think most of it is. (Man, the innuendo that flies around at my rehearsals is full on - completely hilarious and we are all sharing in on the "teasing" - (a mix of straight and gay in the cast). I see the gag reels in this vein also), but I think there's some that's borderline and is perhaps crossing a fine line.

It just struck me that Richard's remark was rather interesting after what had been requested of the audience before the questions start. I know he said it for a laugh (and it got one). I dunno.

And it's there again in the show. I don't come from a background to answer or to know how insulting it is for them to continue to do that. Frustrating for D/C shippers I imagine (all the suggestions without any action), annoying for the non shippers (get on with the story and do something concrete with this relationship) and probably not even noticed by many of the audience.

It's a deeper discussion for sure and I'd be interested in hearing different perspectives on it (I haven't read all the discussion here yet, so it might have been talked about).

I also made the same point about writing such a story sensitively and convincingly to my friend. The show really isn't a romantic genre show so going in that direction would take a lot of writing/creative energy. A writer might say..."I thought we were writing about monsters, not about Dean's sexuality". Doesn't mean they couldn't introduce that element, I just don't think it's on the table with everything else they are trying to deal with story wise. At the moment I'd be thrilled if we get a solid, fabulous conclusion next episode!

Thanks for the thinky. :))

[kassidy62.livejournal.com]

Speaking as the mother of teenagers with male teen friends, they flirt amongst themselves and seem to enjoy it, which actually seems great to me, to play and enjoy it rather than getting uptight about those kinds of interactions. Why is it queer baiting for two people of the same sex to flirt? There's teasing for the sake of cruelty, sure, and I'm sure it's done in Hollywood and bandom, etc. to generate interest, but sexual attraction in general has always been manipulated to create interest in music/movies/shows, healthy or not. That's a whole other topic, I think. I don't know. It feels problematic to me to try and call down flirtation, regardless.

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

About Richard's jokes about being in Jensen's pants--I think that is partially a gay joke, but also a joke about how he'd had girls touching his pants all weekend because they were really Jensen's. So his comments about it had multiple meanings.

Also, I was at NJcon. You say below that Richard's comment was especially off to say just before the J2 panel because of the "don't ask shipping questions" announcement. I'm not sure where that idea came from. It definitely wasn't addressed to the audience (unless it was done Friday before I got there, but with people not being at the con every day I'd think they'd do announcements like that more than once). I don't know if it was something they just said to people in the questions line? This was my first con so maybe I missed something obvious?

I got the impression, after going on the internet back home, that this was an announcement made after the con was over. But I have no idea.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's a good point. I admit to only "hearing" that Jensen had requested no one ask about destiel but I have absolutely no proof on that. There seem to be conflicting reports on what happened at the con and I haven't been able to bring myself to watching that first question.

Watching the introduction it all looks to be in good jest and I am sure it was all part of the atmosphere. I admit to taking it at face value that the request was true, so it was in llight of that Richards comment seem weird to me - mostly the timing of it.

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can understand not being about to bring yourself to watch the video. I've been that way with some con videos--they just give you second-hand embarrassment.

When that question was asked it did get pretty uncomfortable in the room. A lot of people groaned in annoyance. Jensen seemed annoyed too. He tried to calm the room and just tried to move on. Though I honestly don't know if Jensen heard the question at all because he seems to have a hard time hearing questions sometimes anyway, but this time everyone's sighs and groans muffled the question even more. He probably thought the question was much worse than whatever it was going to be. He did say "don't ruin it for everyone" so I think he knows based upon that and the crowd's reactions that this issue is something that can make fandom very divided. I just think questions that could be divisive and a hot button issue would be better asked in private or a small group.

The uncomfortableness passed pretty quickly when the next question and answer went on, but I've seen how big it's blown up on Tumblr and such. I'm trying to avoid all of it. I had fun at the con and I'm not going to let the awkwardness affect my memories.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

This is something I've been puzzling over lately. As a straight woman (married with children, no less, to be even more boring), most of my straight male friends indulge in exactly the same kind of ribbing the SPN cast does, and those same friends are decidedly smart and nerdish. They ain’t the cool kids.

That being said, my brother is gay (living in San Francisco) and I've asked him about this before. He believes (and this is just his belief) that sometimes folks are too sensitive to the teasing and that's mostly what it is: teasing. As a gay man in San Francisco, though, he probably doesn't feel as marginalized as some might in less-diverse areas.

I don't always think the remarks are meant as insults, but sometimes, yes, they can sting. I also don’t think Dean and Cas were ever meant to have a sexual relationship so the public pursuit of D/C as canon (at cons, to the actors) is futile and frankly, often a little extreme. It would help a GREAT deal if, say, Jensen just made a blanket statement that sure, Dean and Cas have a “profound bond” but that will never mean they’ll date. (Has he done this already at some point?)

Misha goes out of his way to sympathize with the LGBT fanbase – he’s simply more liberal – but maybe that’s as bad as boo-ing when “Wincest” or “Destiel” is brought up, even obtusely.

SPN created Charlie as a direct nod to the LGBT quadrant of our fandom. But it wasn’t enough. Will it ever be enough? Probably not.