9.13 episode reaction

[ash48]

Oh my god. I haven't done this in a while so here goes…SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

I haven't read any other reaction posts yet because I wanted to just put down my initial response before I read everything that was wrong with that episode. At the moment I am just so full of squee and OH MY GOD THEY WENT THERE that I just want to saviour it for a moment (this doesn't mean you can't harsh it because you guys know how much I love to chat about the ins and outs of the show - even when you don't agree with me).

I'm going to cut straight to the end because that's the part that I am so excited about. But I'm also pretty happy with the MoTW story so there will be something on that also.

I have deliberately stayed away from tumblr and twitter when checking reactions because I am pretty sure that Sam will be (one again) boo'd for what he said. So I am going to shout this from the roof tops because I am damn sure what Sam said will be taken the wrong way by some.

Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.

This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?).

This is about Sam telling Dean that there are LINES HE WOULD NOT CROSS to bring Dean BACK FROM THE DEAD. This is Sam saying that their lives ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN OTHERS. This is Sam telling Dean that if they were in the EXACT SAME SITUATION as they were when Sam was on the brink of death he would not bring Dean back by making deals or allowing something to be done to Dean that he knows Dean would not want. This is about acknowledging that just because you are family (and love someone) doesn't mean you should do something that endangers someone else's life or goes against what that person wants.

This is not even about Sam devaluing his life (maybe those scenes with Cas WAS about convincing Sam of that…). This is NOT Sam saying "I don't deserve to live because I'm not worth it". It's him saying that "I don't deserve to live MORE THAN Kevin - or more than anyone". NO one deserves to live more than someone else. WE CAN'T MAKES THOSE CHOICES JUST BECAUSE WE ARE FAMILY.

I think this is an amazing step forward for both Sam and Dean. I think it's a remarkable moment of actually communicating (OMG! They actually continued talking rather than pause at stupid moments. I know Sam left it on a bombshell for Dean - but there really wasn't much more to say (and actually it was a pretty tasty reveal about what most of S8 and now S9 has been about).

I THINK this is what Carver was trying to do at the beginning of S8. I think the message that there are lines that Dean is prepared to cross for Sam that Sam isn't prepared to cross for Dean is what Carver wanted to show us with Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory. It wasn't successful (I don't think), so I think he's tried it again this season. I think the message is much clearer this time.

Now. I'm not saying this isn't painful (because Sam words WERE a kick in the teeth to Dean AND to many fans as well I should think), but it desperately needed to be said. Remembering that Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't do everything he could to save Dean if he could. He just said there are LINES.

And this makes so much sense to me because way back in Season 2 I made a video called "Where Do We Draw the Line" and it was ALL ABOUT the lines the Winchesters cross to save each other. Mary did it to save John, John did it to save Dean, Dean did it to save Sam and Sam tried to do it to save Dean (from Hell). Dean did it AGAIN to save Sam and Sam has (finally!!) said "enough!". Because EVERY TIME THEY DO IT IT ENDS BADLY!

What's dead should stay dead.

(and before you yell "but if Dean didn't bring Sam back from the dead there wouldn't be a show" - that isn't actually the point. It's story telling, I am aware of that. OF COURSE Dean had to bring back Sam - it's just now become part of the emotional drama as well as the action).

It's fucking amazing and I am feeling so impressed that they are actually addressing such a major myth arc from the show - waaaay back to the beginning!

I am pretty sure Dean (and maybe fans) will make the assumption that Sam has just confessed that he doesn't love Dean. That he made a comment that he doesn't love Dean ENOUGH to cross those lines. THAT'S NOT TRUE! It's BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE that he wouldn't do what Dean did. That's not to say that Dean didn't do what he did out of love but Sam was SO right when he said he also did it for himself. The episode Bad Boys highlighted this also.

Is it a bad thing that Dean has been told this? Will this mean that Dean will spiral even further into depression? Maybe. But it might also be an incredible wake up call. I suspect it will take a few episodes (and maybe a major incident?) for it to sink in fully.

I am sure once I start reading other responses I will work out what it is that Sam needs to learn, but at the moment Sam seems so clear minded and mature about this. I'm so proud of him.

Dont' get me wrong. I feel massively for Dean. I really do. He's just had a major bombshell dropped on him and the bottom of his world has just fallen out. He totally believed what he did was right. Saving Sam has always been his number one goal - no matter what. Dean now has to start looking at why he saves Sam and what constitutes that "line" for him.

What the MoTW told up about the brothers

There's always a connection with the brothers and the MoTW. It took a while for me to make it, but once we found out that the "monsters" were siblings it because clearer. It's probably not a connection that's nice to make because it's about one sibling giving up the other because they've crossed a line. I don't think we can put either Sam or Dean directly into these roles but the final message is that "family" isn't an excuse for allowing the other to cause death. It also shows us how devastating being left alone is.

Sam and Dean have often argued on which monsters should live and which ones should die. This started way back to Blood Lust. Sam has often seen monsters in shades of grey, whereas Dean has seen them in black and white. Dean started to see more in grey (especially with Benny and wasn't he the one who let the girl go in Bitten?) but recently (again with Carver revisiting the past) Dean has been more single minded when deciding about monsters. Much of what Sam is saying about their roles in their hunting job (and lives) is about how they approach these things differently.

Why I see this as hopeful rather than hopelessly sad

I suppose it seems weird that I would be so excited about a story line that has one brother admitting that he wouldn't bring the other back from the dead (hee..only in Supernatural would we say something like that…), or having one brother be so brutally honest to devastate the other but damn if this isn't the closest they've come to hitting on one of the repeated problems between them. It's NOT easy. But it was never going to be. It shouldn't be. To have such an entrenched behaviour discussed and maybe even changed is an incredible step forward. I know some will think that Dean's behaviour of bringing Sam back from the dead shouldn't be changed (because he loves brother dammit), but it DOES cross many of the lines that even Dean himself has said shouldn't be crossed.

Personally, I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.

It might also mean that neither Sam or Dean should die again. Unless of course they want to throw that all back in Sam's face and have Dean dead and Sam is given an opportunity save him and cross said lines himself (I wouldn't put it passed this show to do that). I'm not sure how exactly they will show Dean understanding the depths of that, because it would actually mean Sam dying and Dean letting him go (and yes, I know Dean let Sam go in S5, but don't forget Carver is revisiting ALL these past issues so it looks like he has go through that again). Hopefully they've got a cunning plan in mind for working this all out.


Other Stuff

I haven't checked who wrote that episode but I liked it. It felt open (I think that was the frank discussions) and pretty tight. I didn't want Sam to be in peril (again) and Dean come to the rescue (again), but as it was crucial for the final convo I can see why it happened.

Sam looked amazing. His hair was loose again! (goes with my theory that his hair matches his sense of freedom). And of course tank top!Sam *dies*

They worked SO well together. Everything that's always there between them was there (eye rolls, bitch faces, smirks, silent signals, etc) which shows that even with them at such odds they fall so easily back into what they do best together.

If ANY ONE is worried that Sam would not do everything he could to save Dean, this episode (and the last one) shows Sam panicked and worried when he thinks Dean is in danger. I think that was deliberately shown so we are clear what Sam's words meant at the end.

Dean and food. :)) Drugged!Dean is always so adorable.

I feel like I have heaps more to say (like squeeing about us now knowing what Sam's "but that's not the problem" meant from 9.10), but I better stop there. :)


Ok guys. Bring it on! I figure I have missed something major here because having an episode that is SO huge in the brother relationship arc will mean that I will be seeing it with certain blinkers on. I know at the moment it looks like Dean is on the back foot but it it could also be the beginning of him taking a huge step forward. Hopefully Sam will be there to catch him if he falls. It would be awesome now if we had episodes where Sam could demonstrate his absolute love for Dean in ways that don't mean crossing those never ending Winchester lines.

Comments

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care. That's what Dean is hearing, and since we only get Dean POV, that's what most of fandom hears. I think I take issue not with what Sam is saying (you KNOW how much I loathed what Dean did in 9.1) but how they are having him say it. Two weeks in a row, he's basically destroyed Dean's reason for being, and then walked out with actually making sure Dean understood what he was saying. Because Dean didn't understand, and I think Sam knew that Dean didn't understand, so to me that's the part that feels cruel. Again, my first thought was that it would be totally in character for Dean to shoot himself in the head after that scene, and I hate feeling that way.

I guess right now, Dean feels pathetic for staying with Sam, and I don't know why Sam is staying with Dean. I totally get every word you are saying, but that's my gut reaction and it's hard to get past that, you know? I don't know what the endgame is really, because I've been saying forever that Sam needs to "save" Dean this time, but now that would seem to be contradictory to what Carver's POV seems to be telling me. So without that hope, I'm struggling to find something to root for.

ETA: It's also up to the writers to stop putting them in contrived situations where Sam almost dies and Dean has to choose between saving him or, in effect, ending the show lol.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Firstly - ETA = A BIG FAT YES!! I mean, the WHOLE season has been set up on this awful decision Dean had to make. Dean HAD to save him - only to end up having this awful rift between him (and fans).

This is also how I felt about the beginning of S8. A totally contrived conflict between them because Sam didn't look for Dean (which STILL pisses me off) I am less annoyed by Sam saying what he did tonight than I did with them making him a brother that didn't even try to look for Dean).

I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care.

Ok. I think I'm getting a better picture about why fans are pissed of with Sam (I seriously couldn't figure it out). Sam is coming across as cruel. That IS sad to hear that - because I didn't see it like that (and I know we all have different ways of perceiving). It's weird for me then because I think we all(maybe all??) expected a huge backlash from Sam when he learned the truth about what Dean did. I'm not sure what fans expected Sam to do though? Just accept it? Say thank you? Scream and punch Dean? Instead he told some home truths because he genuinely sees a problem here. Maybe that's too passive aggressive and Sam just needed to say "fuck you, don't do that again".

But yeah, I think the fact that they haven't allowed Sam to say stuff and maybe follow it up with a "but I still love you man" is what makes it so cruel. AND that we get all this from Dean's POV only.

I think that's why I was so amazed by that final scene. Sam actually looked thoughtful and in control (first time in forever) and it seemed like Dean was actually hearing some of what Sam had to say. The end was horrid for Dean and he will totally take that as Sam not loving him (more contrived drama?) which will probably created all sorts of angst for the future episodes. I hope not. I would like to see this as a turning point. Dean may spiral down and Sam will have to be his saviour.

Even though it looks like these two shouldn't be together they WILL find a way back to each other. And I'm looking forward (I think!) to that journey. (Of course, if they just had sex it would solve everything)

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

i could agree with you IF show would actually allow Sam to BE Deans savior. He NEVER is. Im sure that is whats adding to the sam hate out there. I love them both but man its hard at the moment to even like sam a little.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

it seemed like Dean was actually hearing some of what Sam had to say.

I don't think Dean was hearing it at all, and that's the problem. Dean's been terrified of rejection his entire life, especially from Sam, and all last night did was validate, in Dean's mind, that Sam will never care about Dean as much as Dean cares about him. I think Dean's been scared of that a long time, and it's why he's so affected by, say, finding out in the Heaven episode that Sam's happy memories were without him (and that Sam didn't "think of family like you do, Dean"). It's also why he was so hurt by Sam not even bothering to look for him while he was in purgatory.

Does it mean that Sam meant it that way or that Dean is right? No. But we the viewer get so little Sam POV that unless we already identify with him as a character, we are going to be more likely to automatically see things through Dean's devastated eyes.

I think they are diametrically opposite each other and I don't know how to rectify it. It's almost like how most parents would jump in front of that proverbial bus for their child, but the child is much less likely to do it for their parent. It's just a fundamental difference, and it's hard to see how they can equalize in a way that will ever be satisfying to both of them.

they WILL find a way back to each other

But why should they? That's the question I'm struggling with right now, as gigantic ridiculous stupid Sam/Dean OTP'er.

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't think Dean is hearing it either, and I think as I said in my review that they are setting this up as a season eight parallel. Just as Dean said things to Sam that sent him on a downward spiral, so Sam is doing that to Dean this season. The problem is that fans are going to argue about who's wrong or right, and I don't think that's the issue. It's how Sam last season or Dean this season takes the words, and tbh I do think that a part of Sam intends to wound Dean with those words just as Dean did Sam last season. I'm not going re-hash my entire argument here, but I think that Sam will probably be faced with a similar dilemma to Dean's in 8.23 and 9.01 at some point.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I used to think that is what they were leading up to, that Sam would finally "save" Dean...but I'm not so sure now. I honestly think that Sam's POV last night is Carver's POV, so doing any kind of parallel to what Dean did last season would be completely opposite that. It makes me wonder if Dean's going to go darkside and Sam's going to choose NOT to save him.

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

Possible, I mean Sam is pigheaded, but then what? Does Sam have to kill his brother who's become a monster? Is that where they're going and if so ... hm, how does Sam live with himself knowing that he is at least partially responsible for Dean going down that path? I just wonder if Sam will be able to stick with his principles if faced with Dean choosing death. I'm thinking John in "Devil's Trap" or Sam in "Croatoan" here. Would Sam kill Dean or opt to try to save him. I'm wondering just how much are they willing to second guess the first five season because there are any number of points along the journey that "could" have changed the course of the narrative.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Eeesh, if we think Sam is getting hate now.......

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I mean, Carver wrote himself into a bit of a corner, no? I mean, if we are assuming that Dean goes darkside and is pushed to the brink and needs "saving" at all. If Sam doesn't follow through with what he said last night, then Carver is invalidating his own mission statement lol.

Or there is no life-or-death situation for Dean and he just drinks a lot and kills things for the rest of the season, which is also possible.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Guh, who the hell knows? This is why I don't really try to guess logically what will happen. One, I'm generally not that smart and two, not sure the writers are either, so logic is this mythical perfume none of us can afford...

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

There are other ways to save Dean that aren't from physical death. We don't know how the MOC will affect Dean. He may need to be saved from that. Cain did kill his brother because he believed Abel was going to do something wrong. What if the Mark makes Dean begin to believe he has to kill Sam to save him? What if the only way to free Dean from the Mark is for Sam to let Dean kill him. I'm not buying that saving Dean has to be not letting him die. I think there are other things to be saved from.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I don't think Dean was hearing it at all, and that's the problem.

Yeah. You are right there. I think I was thinking of the scene before when Sam said would it have been right to kill Sam when Gadreel was in him. Dean really stopped to think about that and in the end didn't kill the monster. I felt like some progress was made there (at least some awareness).

But yes. Hearing that from Sam is Dean hearing the one thing he hoped he'd never hear. And it makes me think that even though Dean knew what he did wasn't exactly a great idea (and that Sam would be mad at him) I don't think he counted on Dean being this honest with him. And yes, it cements the idea in his brain that Sam just really doesn't care as much for Dean as Dean cares for Sam.

It's heartbreaking to think about but I am going to remain stubbornly optimistic that down the track we'll see that not looking for Dean (which I hated anyway) and now saying he wouldn't cross lines to save Dean are about just that - not crossing those lines - and not because he doesn't love him. I am seriously hoping that this is about Dean realising that actually Sam does love and care for him as much as Dean wants him too - saying that I wouldn't let something possess you against you knowledge or will is NOT saying I don't love you. It's just - I love you differently. I love you in a way that would respect those boundaries. Only - Dean will most definitely not see it like that.

Yet.

But why should they?

HA! damn good question! Even I am thinking that they would be better off apart and forever. Only - arghhh….No! They are stuck together and actually need each other - everything that has gone before matters, everything they have been through matters, that they are family matters - so I do see that they actually need to sort out these deep seated problems so they can stay together (into their old age!) and actually learn to like each other once again. As Sam said…I see light at the end of this tunnel. (and wow, just saw a link that suggests the the show will go beyond S10. I can't even…)
xx

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

On another note, did you read the Fangasm review of the episode? I think it articulated really well why it's okay that people are upset about the change in dynamic between them (and there will be a change -- the writer of this episode retweeted an anti-codependency tweet from one of the Destiel crowd lol)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey,

I've seen the fangasm review recced, but I haven't read it yet. I've been SO wary of reading reviews because I'm not sure how even handed it will be. I like anything that sees both sides. But if it's about being annoyed and upset with the show then I'm worried it will make me feel even worse that I'm not exactly upset by the turn of events. I mean - I COULD be. In fact, I could be absolutely devastated. If this is not about ultimately building a better relationship I will be totally devastated. If this ends up being a shout out to destiel fans (because now that Dean feels that Sam doesn't love him he might turn to Cas because will tell him what he did was actually right and Sam will be further discredited and it will be absolutely horrible. Dammit. First time in all the discussions I'm actually feeling depressed about this).

I don't mind them exploring the co-dependency between them. I WILL mind if it's about tearing it all down so that there's nothing left but an empty partnership. Doing ridiculous things to save each other is kinda what this show is built on - but I also believe that they can have this ridiculous, messy love without them crossing lines that means either one of them doesn't have a say in what happens to themselves.

(and the more I think about it (after reading stuff) this probably will be about Sam releasing that Dean is right and love concours all and the sacrifices he makes for Sam are worth it because he should be grateful to be alive. Sam will realise that Dean's remorse is enough to make him feel bad that he was so mean to Dean. And... the cycle will continue because codependent brothers are warm and fuzzy).

I DO still believe they will eventually be back together but probably only because Sam will come to realise how awesome Dean is and he should do whatever he likes to him because family actually mean more than anything else (I hope not, but it seems like it what the majority of fans want and therefore probably what TPTB are writing (with a side helping of destiel thrown in for good measure).

Dammit! Sorry, I didn't mean to wank on. This topic is getting the better of me! I've been doing my best to stay positive but me thinks I might have just exhausted that. Time to read that article on my it's ok to feel upset. ;)

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Oh no, the Fangasm ladies love the bros and the show, so it's not negative like that. I had just been trying to articulate why I felt sad about what could be changing (even if it's for the better) and they did it in terms that made me feel better in an "I'm not alone and I shouldn't feel bad!" way. That make sense? Lots of love there.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

The thing is that Dean has a hard time hearing what Sam says unless Sam says what he wants to hear. Way back in season one in Salvation (I think) Sam talked about how once it was over and they got the "Thing that killed Mom and Jess" (because at the time Sam and Dean didn't know what had killed them)that he was relieved and could go back to school and his life. Dean got all hurt and felt rejected even though Sam told him that he didn't want Dean out of his life, that they were brothers and that they could still have a relationship. Yes, it would be a more normal sibling relationship where they call each other once a week, and see each other on birthdays and holidays and sometimes take vacations together, but it would be a relationship. But all Dean heard was that Sam was rejecting him.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

p.s. I miss "LET'S BE ZOMBIES, DEAN!" Sam lol

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I don't really get the "contrived" objection. Of course the situation was set up to put certain stressors on Dean in order to explore certain themes and character stuff, but that's what writing does. And though I think the execution has not been optimal, I don't think the themes weren't themes of the show or that the character traits of Dean that went into that decision weren't long-established and very legitimate avenues for exploration. So "but he had to do it or Sam would die and the show would be over" is to me a particularly pointless crossing of Watson and Doyle wires. Dean still made a free-will choice in universe, and it was one that was, to me at least, a consistent one with interesting implications.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying, but to me not only does it feel redundant but I don't trust these writers to do justice to it.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

My current thinking is that what Carver is doing is something more like a conscious remix. Maybe not the best choice for a continuator (though not necessarily a bad choice either -- I think it's very hard to go this long without repeating oneself, so one might as well do something with the repetition) and I definitely think the writing bench is weak, but I'm not sure that in the dialectic between Kripke and Carver I won't end up siding with Carver on some points. I think some of the rocks he's turning over were worth turning.

Fundamentally, though, I'm a Gamble girl. It's fine to see some of Kripke's family dysfunction obsession reexamined, but I'd be a lot more interested in a version of s9 that was exploring the things I think Gamble would have gotten out of it: Sam's body/self issues, Dean's dehumanizing identification of himself as a killer. Her seasons sucked on the pacing, way too much crammed into s6 and left dangling, way too little in s7 and left unresolved, but I think her take on the individual characters was fascinating.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

This might sound harsh, but I really think that Gamble loved these characters as much as Kripke did, even with subtle yet real differences. I don't feel that love from Carver. I know it sounds stupid, but it's the magic ingredient for me and it's missing in this current storytelling.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I get the feeling that Carver may actually have looked at the dynamics and the characters and felt appalled. And part of me finds that very off-putting, but part of me gets why it would happen, though I think it does give a certain coldness.

Another reason I like Gamble so much is that I feel like Kripke had to idealize in order to love, and Gamble managed to have a fundamentally darker vision than he did without losing that connection. I think Carver's darker vision is fair enough, but he DID pay for it with a certain gut-level connection. Maybe just distance; if Gamble had come back after being away for years it might have been the same for her.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I think this is actually pretty damned spot-on.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

Oh YAY! Someone else who liked Gamble's years. What little I know is that Gamble lost control in late season six early season seven due to the belief that she wasn't handling the budget correctly. So I actually don't blame her as much as others do for the problems in season seven. Now Bob Singer, who took over part of the show runner responsibilities without ever putting himself on the line for the criticisms, him I have issues with.

[monicawoe.livejournal.com]

Agreed re: Sera. She understood Sam and Dean very well and especially their darker parts.
I often wonder how these last two seasons would have gone with her at the wheel.