9.13 episode reaction

[ash48]

Oh my god. I haven't done this in a while so here goes…SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

I haven't read any other reaction posts yet because I wanted to just put down my initial response before I read everything that was wrong with that episode. At the moment I am just so full of squee and OH MY GOD THEY WENT THERE that I just want to saviour it for a moment (this doesn't mean you can't harsh it because you guys know how much I love to chat about the ins and outs of the show - even when you don't agree with me).

I'm going to cut straight to the end because that's the part that I am so excited about. But I'm also pretty happy with the MoTW story so there will be something on that also.

I have deliberately stayed away from tumblr and twitter when checking reactions because I am pretty sure that Sam will be (one again) boo'd for what he said. So I am going to shout this from the roof tops because I am damn sure what Sam said will be taken the wrong way by some.

Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.

This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?).

This is about Sam telling Dean that there are LINES HE WOULD NOT CROSS to bring Dean BACK FROM THE DEAD. This is Sam saying that their lives ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN OTHERS. This is Sam telling Dean that if they were in the EXACT SAME SITUATION as they were when Sam was on the brink of death he would not bring Dean back by making deals or allowing something to be done to Dean that he knows Dean would not want. This is about acknowledging that just because you are family (and love someone) doesn't mean you should do something that endangers someone else's life or goes against what that person wants.

This is not even about Sam devaluing his life (maybe those scenes with Cas WAS about convincing Sam of that…). This is NOT Sam saying "I don't deserve to live because I'm not worth it". It's him saying that "I don't deserve to live MORE THAN Kevin - or more than anyone". NO one deserves to live more than someone else. WE CAN'T MAKES THOSE CHOICES JUST BECAUSE WE ARE FAMILY.

I think this is an amazing step forward for both Sam and Dean. I think it's a remarkable moment of actually communicating (OMG! They actually continued talking rather than pause at stupid moments. I know Sam left it on a bombshell for Dean - but there really wasn't much more to say (and actually it was a pretty tasty reveal about what most of S8 and now S9 has been about).

I THINK this is what Carver was trying to do at the beginning of S8. I think the message that there are lines that Dean is prepared to cross for Sam that Sam isn't prepared to cross for Dean is what Carver wanted to show us with Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory. It wasn't successful (I don't think), so I think he's tried it again this season. I think the message is much clearer this time.

Now. I'm not saying this isn't painful (because Sam words WERE a kick in the teeth to Dean AND to many fans as well I should think), but it desperately needed to be said. Remembering that Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't do everything he could to save Dean if he could. He just said there are LINES.

And this makes so much sense to me because way back in Season 2 I made a video called "Where Do We Draw the Line" and it was ALL ABOUT the lines the Winchesters cross to save each other. Mary did it to save John, John did it to save Dean, Dean did it to save Sam and Sam tried to do it to save Dean (from Hell). Dean did it AGAIN to save Sam and Sam has (finally!!) said "enough!". Because EVERY TIME THEY DO IT IT ENDS BADLY!

What's dead should stay dead.

(and before you yell "but if Dean didn't bring Sam back from the dead there wouldn't be a show" - that isn't actually the point. It's story telling, I am aware of that. OF COURSE Dean had to bring back Sam - it's just now become part of the emotional drama as well as the action).

It's fucking amazing and I am feeling so impressed that they are actually addressing such a major myth arc from the show - waaaay back to the beginning!

I am pretty sure Dean (and maybe fans) will make the assumption that Sam has just confessed that he doesn't love Dean. That he made a comment that he doesn't love Dean ENOUGH to cross those lines. THAT'S NOT TRUE! It's BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE that he wouldn't do what Dean did. That's not to say that Dean didn't do what he did out of love but Sam was SO right when he said he also did it for himself. The episode Bad Boys highlighted this also.

Is it a bad thing that Dean has been told this? Will this mean that Dean will spiral even further into depression? Maybe. But it might also be an incredible wake up call. I suspect it will take a few episodes (and maybe a major incident?) for it to sink in fully.

I am sure once I start reading other responses I will work out what it is that Sam needs to learn, but at the moment Sam seems so clear minded and mature about this. I'm so proud of him.

Dont' get me wrong. I feel massively for Dean. I really do. He's just had a major bombshell dropped on him and the bottom of his world has just fallen out. He totally believed what he did was right. Saving Sam has always been his number one goal - no matter what. Dean now has to start looking at why he saves Sam and what constitutes that "line" for him.

What the MoTW told up about the brothers

There's always a connection with the brothers and the MoTW. It took a while for me to make it, but once we found out that the "monsters" were siblings it because clearer. It's probably not a connection that's nice to make because it's about one sibling giving up the other because they've crossed a line. I don't think we can put either Sam or Dean directly into these roles but the final message is that "family" isn't an excuse for allowing the other to cause death. It also shows us how devastating being left alone is.

Sam and Dean have often argued on which monsters should live and which ones should die. This started way back to Blood Lust. Sam has often seen monsters in shades of grey, whereas Dean has seen them in black and white. Dean started to see more in grey (especially with Benny and wasn't he the one who let the girl go in Bitten?) but recently (again with Carver revisiting the past) Dean has been more single minded when deciding about monsters. Much of what Sam is saying about their roles in their hunting job (and lives) is about how they approach these things differently.

Why I see this as hopeful rather than hopelessly sad

I suppose it seems weird that I would be so excited about a story line that has one brother admitting that he wouldn't bring the other back from the dead (hee..only in Supernatural would we say something like that…), or having one brother be so brutally honest to devastate the other but damn if this isn't the closest they've come to hitting on one of the repeated problems between them. It's NOT easy. But it was never going to be. It shouldn't be. To have such an entrenched behaviour discussed and maybe even changed is an incredible step forward. I know some will think that Dean's behaviour of bringing Sam back from the dead shouldn't be changed (because he loves brother dammit), but it DOES cross many of the lines that even Dean himself has said shouldn't be crossed.

Personally, I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.

It might also mean that neither Sam or Dean should die again. Unless of course they want to throw that all back in Sam's face and have Dean dead and Sam is given an opportunity save him and cross said lines himself (I wouldn't put it passed this show to do that). I'm not sure how exactly they will show Dean understanding the depths of that, because it would actually mean Sam dying and Dean letting him go (and yes, I know Dean let Sam go in S5, but don't forget Carver is revisiting ALL these past issues so it looks like he has go through that again). Hopefully they've got a cunning plan in mind for working this all out.


Other Stuff

I haven't checked who wrote that episode but I liked it. It felt open (I think that was the frank discussions) and pretty tight. I didn't want Sam to be in peril (again) and Dean come to the rescue (again), but as it was crucial for the final convo I can see why it happened.

Sam looked amazing. His hair was loose again! (goes with my theory that his hair matches his sense of freedom). And of course tank top!Sam *dies*

They worked SO well together. Everything that's always there between them was there (eye rolls, bitch faces, smirks, silent signals, etc) which shows that even with them at such odds they fall so easily back into what they do best together.

If ANY ONE is worried that Sam would not do everything he could to save Dean, this episode (and the last one) shows Sam panicked and worried when he thinks Dean is in danger. I think that was deliberately shown so we are clear what Sam's words meant at the end.

Dean and food. :)) Drugged!Dean is always so adorable.

I feel like I have heaps more to say (like squeeing about us now knowing what Sam's "but that's not the problem" meant from 9.10), but I better stop there. :)


Ok guys. Bring it on! I figure I have missed something major here because having an episode that is SO huge in the brother relationship arc will mean that I will be seeing it with certain blinkers on. I know at the moment it looks like Dean is on the back foot but it it could also be the beginning of him taking a huge step forward. Hopefully Sam will be there to catch him if he falls. It would be awesome now if we had episodes where Sam could demonstrate his absolute love for Dean in ways that don't mean crossing those never ending Winchester lines.

Comments

[novakev.livejournal.com]

I liked your tie-in with the MOTW, I hadn't picked that up.

My take on Sam's 'I would not do the same thing' is because he respects Dean's right to make his own decisions. Sam usually follows Dean, allowing him to make most of the decisions in their lives; even in S5 he wanted approval before doing what needed to be done,

I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey. I'm always thinking - what's the connection and this one was hard. But after seeing the end it seems to be about those lines you are prepared to cross for family.

I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!

Yeah. And this will be what makes this all fall apart. Especially is the fandom reaction is anything to go by (now that I've had a chance to check some out). They've made Dean look like the one who has been wronged by Sam's words where Sam has really spoken about some home truths that Dean does really need to take on board.

It's sad in many ways because what Sam has been through as been COMPLETELY overlooked. We never got to see the effect of the possession and Dean's deception has really had on him so everybody (and wow, I think everybody) see's Sam's reaction as being harsh. We only see Dean being devastated hearing the truth rather than acknowledging that Dean needs to be devastated after his choice. Not to say it isn't horrible for Dean and hearing Sam say what he did hurts but I can't help think it needed to be said.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

My question is how many people are just tired at this point, you know? Going through another round of the versus wars of S4 (with extra ammunition now for the Sam-hating side, whether it was what he was saying or not) just to wait for them to "fix" what Carver re-broke is exhausting lol. And, for me at least, the difference between this and S4/5 is that at least back then you could feel how palpable the love was, even under the darkest circumstances. Now, maybe it's the writing, maybe the actors are more bored, maybe I just am, but I don't even feel like Sam likes Dean. Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm? That seems like something that should be cared about, and the nonchalance is disconcerting.

Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol.

Anyway, not harshing your squee and I'm GLAD that there are still people who are excited about the show. Lord knows we need it to keep fandom going so that we can all write/read/draw more gay porn lol.

ETA: The first thing I thought when that was over is that I could imagine a coda with Dean eating a bullet after that scene. Maybe I should write it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Going through another round of the versus wars of S4 (with extra ammunition now for the Sam-hating side, whether it was what he was saying or not) just to wait for them to "fix" what Carver re-broke is exhausting lol.

It is and I would love not to be going through this again. I know many people have jumped ship because, yeah, it's re-hashing it all over again. I think i've actually come to accept that Sam is always hated - no matter what he does. Even after being a victim no one seems to see his pov. I actually think the show did a pretty good job of allowing him to speak tonight, which is probably why I'm so happy. But yeah - sick of the infighting (I wasn't part of it all during S4 so maybe I'm not so jaded).

Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm?

It would appear not - and I think that's really sad too. I don't know why they let that slide so easily. And yet tonight Sam was all panicky when he knew Dean was in danger. I don't see Sam not liking Dean, but I think I am blinked in that area.

Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol.

Yeah. I agree. I would say that's part of Sam's anger but it's a shame they made him say that. Sam knows that's not true. If it's deliberate then that will be about making Sam have to eat his words later on.

Lord knows we need it to keep fandom going so that we can all write/read/draw more gay porn lol.

MOAR porn is needed!!!

And honestly, I don't know why I'm still this hyped about the show. I actually think it's because I didn't think they would ever address the "crossing the line" issue. But maybe it's because I just want to still love it? Or maybe I keep expecting it to be so bad that I end up being even happier when it's doing something that surprises me.
xx

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Huh. I wish I'd read your reaction first. Stupid time zones.

Even before I read your post, I was feeling a lot better about the episode (especially that final scene) this morning than I did last night, but I don't think I'll ever get to the levels of squee that you and some have reached. Or, for that matter, the abysmal levels of hatred I've seen from others. I seem to be stuck in the middle. (Maybe because I'm a Dean!girl who loves Sam? IDK.) In any case, I'm still recovering. And I definitely need a rewatch. :)

I do love what you said regarding the MOTW situation paralleling that of Sam and Dean. I loved that part, and kudos to the writers for doing it.

I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.

I so, SO hope that you're right, and I really hope that Cain's Mark has something to do with it. I can take reveals like last night's IF the final result is a stronger brotherly relationship (breaking eggs to make the omelet, so to speak), but I can't if all Show is going to do is keep jerking our chain. So yeah, I really hope you're right about this.

*tentatively rebuilding hope*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*hugs* I think the fan reaction is more painful than what's going on in the show. I have no idea why I don't see it like them (maybe because I sympathise with Sam? but still love Dean?).

I have this very weird way of looking at this as Sam being the only one who can actually keep Dean "human" (Dean's even said this) and this is a great example of this. Dean DOES cross lines. I don't think even the most one eyed Dean girls can deny that. Dean DID cross a major line when allowing an angel to possess Sam without his knowledge or consent. If Sam doesn't say something about this NO ONE will. He's the only one. He'll be hated for it. Dean will be incredibly hurt by it but what should happen is that it should be Dean's saviour. Sam should be Dean's saviour by knowing Dean well enough to call him on it (I think the monster in the ep killing people may have been representing Dean - his sister tried to save him but he didn't listen. Let's hope the opposite happens to Dean and he DOES listen).

Of course, knowing this show they'll twist it back to somehow making Sam wrong in what he's done but if they are going in the direction I am hoping they are going this will be what saves Dean from going completely going dark side.

Sam will be called to task also. Even if it's to say - don't kick your brother while he's down! How about say that all that important stuff and then give him a hug and tell him you love him!! (cause I know Sam DOES love him - more than anything).

And here's the final thing. This show IS about their brotherhood love and bond. EVERYONE connected to the shows says it and knows it. All of this is about building a drama that will mean that when they DO finally see eye to eye (which they WILL) it will be even more powerful because issues that have never really been settled between them (and Dean's dependence on Sam is one of them) are being addressed. Considering we have at least another season they have lots to delve into yet!

And also. That ep was ALL SAM AND DEAN!! \o/ And aside from the underlying issues between them it was pretty much old school. Great stuff!
xoxo

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

My gut reaction was with Dean's - the whole episode was building towards that moment where Sam gives him the honest truth and it did leave me all churned up. Not like some reactions I've seen out of the corner of my eye (not going there, I can do without the looney fringe brother hate, cheers thanks a lot) and after some reflection time I am reaching where you are, I think.

Thanks for expressing it all so well!

"Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.

This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?)."
But of course, this is exactly how Dean is going to see it, which is why it feels like such a kick in the stomach. Even if it was a much needed kick! I think you might be right, they might be aiming to bring Dean even lower before patching this up - hence the heavy drinking making a reappearance. But I too, hope this will be the making of them.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I went into this episode with a sense of dread (and you know my only hint? My hug vid got some re-tweets today so I figured the episode might have been a sad one) so maybe because it wasn't nearly as sad as I imagined it might be I ended up being much happier about it.

Even if it was a much needed kick! I think you might be right, they might be aiming to bring Dean even lower before patching this up - hence the heavy drinking making a reappearance.

Yeah, I think Dean will hit rock bottom (maybe) before he realises or sees that Sam don't mean that he doesn't love him and that he himself would die for him if he had the chance. He only said he wouldn't do something that Dean wouldn't want him to do (allow abaddon into his body for example) or make a deal that would bring him back from the dead. Dean (and I think maybe fans?) is mixing up Sam not loving and appreciating him with him simply saying there are lines he wouldn't cross. I think Sam knowing what those lines are shows him to have made some growth. Is it maybe that Sam comes across knowing this while Dean doesn't that has everyone so up in arms? I can't believe the Sam hate out there at the moment. :((

[digitalwave]

This is an amazing post, sweetie and really says what I felt after watching last night. Thanks for sharing it with us. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yay!! So happy there are some feeling the same way. We are in the minority…*clings*
xx

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

I do think what we are seeing is some growth on Sam's part. Like you said, it's not that he wont save Dean but there's a line he won't cross. Iin S4 they showed us through flasbacks how he did try, unsuccessfully, to sell his soul to bring Dean back from Hell. So at one time he would've crossed that line but not anymore.

I think most people realize Dean has a harder time growing/ changing. Plus, since he was four, his prime directive has been to take care of Sam. Having that ingrained into at such a young age as part of a tragedy, it isn't going to be easy for Dean to give it up. Regardless of how John presented that expectation to him, it would've been so easy to twist that expectation in his(Dean's) mind into something more (save Sam at all costs). Of course Dean is saving Sam for himself....what else would he have to do if Sam weren't there? I almost commented on your post last week on why Dean is so broken over Kevin's death and his responsibility there and not what he did to Sam...because what he did to Sam was worse, especially in Dean's own mind. As horrible as Kevin's death is, it easier for Dean to face than doing anything horrible to Sam, the person he has been responsible for most of his life. If he has failed at his "prime directive", where does that leave him?

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

since he was four, his prime directive has been to take care of Sam. Having that ingrained into at such a young age as part of a tragedy, it isn't going to be easy for Dean to give it up. Regardless of how John presented that expectation to him, it would've been so easy to twist that expectation in his(Dean's) mind into something more (save Sam at all costs).

Brilliant, brilliant observation. Save Sammy -- by any means necessary. And Dean partially alluded to this himself, way back in S1:

"For you or Dad, the things I'm willing to do or kill, it's just, uh .... it scares me."

Even Dean knows something's messed up there.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

I agree with you!
It scares me a little that Dean believes he did the RIGHT thing saving his brother's life over and over again. In S8 finale Dean placed his brother's life before countless people who are suffering from the demons walking the earth. I thought Dean knew he just had to because he loved Sam too much to let go, but he believes it is right? He and Sam were not the only ones who worked their asses off to close the gates of Hell, there were also innocent ones killed as collateral damage. I understand that he was desperate to talk Sam out of his sacrifice back then, but after some time he still could use "right" to describe what he did in the church... I think, maybe, his hunter self should know better? But maybe in defending himself he just let the word slip. I dunno.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

No, I think that is how Dean sees everything, through a Sam-filter first, everything else, hunting, saving people, comes second, or is viewed through the Sam-filter first. It's not rational or reasonable and goes back to the conditioning that auntmo9 mentions above...

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

i liked the 1st half, got distracted in the 1st half of it,Sam in shorts and the yoga and that distraction continued i dont remember the last 5 minutes. i need to watch again friday

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Um..you don't remember the last 5 mins? Wow...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*high five* :D

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

The Sam-bashing out there is unreal.

I get that people are feeling Dean's hurt, and Dean's inability to read Sam's rejection of being on the receiving or giving end of that particular destructive model of love as anything but a rejection of love. I get that there's a sense of extreme risk, because so much of Dean is tied up in that language he speaks. But. Sam just got translated into that language and it literally erased him. Sam CANNOT try to reach out to Dean by speaking that language, accepting those terms. That way madness lies. He has to take the risk of standing by other terms.

ETA: my metaphor may be a bit confused there.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I love your confusion and your metaphors.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately I can't spend time here at the moment reading thoroughly and thinking. Have to go yo work. I skimmed and will come back. Intellectually I recognize the truisms in what you are saying. I do have to admit that my initial reaction was not good I hope t say more Bout that. Been thinking about it thus morning. But can't now. Basically I walked away from that ep not wanting to watch again. Not just the ep. But maybe the show. That won't happen of course. And I recognize it as emotional response. I intellectually recognize Sam's maturity in saying what he did. I just am angry at him. Even if I know he may be right. I live him. But honestly I'm not sure I want to watch if the maladjusted codependency goes away. I'm not doing a good job of saying this here now. Still mulling on it and now I have to get ready for work

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey there. I'm back and I gotta say my frame of mind isn't in a good place about it all at the moment either (bit of a turn around I know). There's enough comments for me to see that Sam having a voice and calling Dean out on what he's done is not what fans want to see - and I figure TPTB know that and have used Sam just to create the tension.

So, I actually think there's no worry here because the co-dependency will continue. Sam will see that Dean is right - family should be above everything else, no matter the consequences. Sam will learn to suck it up and not be such a pain in the ass little brother (ungrateful and selfish to boot) and Dean will shine through as the wronged hero and will finally (finally!) be fully appreciated by his brother.

It probably seems like a touch of sarcasm in there, but actually I think I've just seem some truths and might just be preparing to face the facts that this isn't anything more that creating drama for drama's sake.

And perhaps I'm now feeling the devastation that other fans are. Only mine is because it looks like they probably aren't going to be doing some amazing things with this relationship that I first thought (like looking inward at the co-dependency and seeing that maybe there's even a better way to be).

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

at the risk of getting hit with rotten tomatoes here goes. I GET what your saying and logically your right. The problem though is that show NEVER really shows anything from Sams mind frame or view point, so all we get are his words and those are pretty harsh. also, in almost every scenario that has mattered--Sam has failed to save Dean. I dont mean MOTW stuff, I mean MAJOR stuff. i.e. hell, purgatory etc. Even though I believe he loves Dean show doesnt do a good job of "selling me on it". Also, for everything that Sam has been through lately he seems awfully composed and level headed that too cheapens (to me) his overall arc. Hes like teflon man, nothing sticks for long. IDK not trying to rain on your parade at all, I just feel that were getting a very uneven feel from the brothers and that makes me wanna stand behind the one in massive man pain (Dean) did you see him drinking his breakfast? Also did you catch Sam in the beginning of the ep looking for food like wondering why Dean wasnt providing since he is usually the one to feed sam. Gah this freaking show owns me! still love your reviews .

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi. It's totally cool. I am trying to figure out where all the sam hate is coming from. I think I'm getting it - and maybe it's the writing? On paper Sam should be the one we should be feeling sorry for. He's the one who Dean deceived and allowed something to happen to him that Dean KNEW he'd hate and yet everyone hates him. I wonder if it might be because we sometimes blame the victim for what happens to them? I think if Sam was crying and suffering and being depressed fans would hate him for being weak. They'd say he was blackmailing Dean into feeling bad. As I see it there is NO way Sam can come out of this looking good.

For me, finally calling Dean on this cycle of resurrection is a HUGE thing for Sam to be doing. I suppose it's unsympathetic because the person who shows the tough love (stealing from a comment below..;D) is the one that looks harsh and uncaring. In the end it SHOULD be the right thing to do. Sam's words were so genuine and heartfelt and true. Sure is was incredibly painful for Dean to hear but who was going to tell him if it wasn't Sam?

I think there might be a real turn around happening soon. Maybe Dean will need Sam to be the big brother for a while (and if Sam makes Dean food I'll positively melt!)
xx

Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I agree very much with all you say... except for two things:

1, I'm still not sure Dean heard what Sam was really trying to say. Sam is all about autonomy and he was trying to say he would respect Dean's wishes. Dean heard "i wouldn't save you" --- so I'm not sure there was real communication there.

and 2, that is why Sam comes across as cruel when he is really "just being honest" (which, is sometimes Very Cruel but probably Absolutely Unavoidably Necessary by this point).

The monster parallels in this ep and last were a little confusing. Like, if your loved one is a monster you can't just stand blindly by and let them eat people. I guess the more direct parallel is that Sam can no longer stand idly by while Dean puts him first before the world. I knew that was going to sit hard with Sam way back at s8 finale and I am really glad they have kept that ball in the air. Sam jumped into the pit to save the world, he was willing to do it again -- but Dean pulled him back and Sam vacillated and now Kevin is dead for nothing. So people are getting hurt -- and Sam is trying to put his foot down to let Dean know that he doesn't want Dean always putting him first any more. It's very like Doctor Who when River was all blinded by her adoration for the Doctor, putting the Doctor's life before the Universe -- which the Doctor would never allow. So too Sam can't go on allowing Dean to put him eternally first.

ONE MORE THING. Sam is trying to break the cycle of codependency between them which has really gone too far. Dean is feeling it like Sam doesn't love him any more. But I think the time has come for Sam to be Tough on Dean. It is very hard to watch, as chomaisky put it, DEAN'S SAD FACE!!! ;_: but Dean needs to hear Sam say this stuff and know he means it, and figure out WHAT Sam means which I really think it the hardest part.

Final point: Is it *possible* for Dean to change? to not put Sammy first? isn't that hardwired into Dean Winchester??? how???? All I know is, for Dean to change, IT'S GONNA HURT. D:

Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Kevin is dead for nothing

See, I posit that Sam dying in 8.23 wouldn't have changed almost anything that happened after it. Perhaps the Crowley/Abaddon story, but Carver was never clear on exactly what closing the gates of Hell would accomplish, so I don't even think that is guaranteed.

If Sam died in 8.23, the angels would still have fallen. Cas would still be a powerless human. Metatron would still have needed to kill the prophet, and surely would have figured out another way to do it.

The difference would be that Dean would have been there alone to a) clean up the mess himself or b) go on a grief-stricken kamikaze mission that got himself killed. I don't think Dean was being manipulative when he told Sam in that church that they could figure it out together, that they had the tools, that they could still fight. Taking Sam out of that equation didn't make the world better.

I just personally hate that people (and Carver and Sam) are equating 8.23 with 9.1 because I think they are very different things.

[ashtraythief.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this post, it made me feel a lot better about this episode, and all residual things I still don't like about it, I'll blame on bad writing ;)(I thought this ep was really badly written, from the way you can't feel the love that must still be there between the brothers, down to the point where they know the monster is hiding in the basement and forget to take flashlights with them so they have to take the ones conveniently hanging next to the door. Because really? Our boys are fucking badass, and it really rubs me the wrong way when the writers protray them as incompetent.)
I get why Sam said what he said, but the way it was delivered... I mean Sam would know how much he would hurt Dean, and like pointed out above, I don't know if it's the writing or the actors, but it didn't really look like Sam cared all that much about ripping Dean's heart out. Which I don't blame the character for, in my headcanon Sammy will always love his Dean more than anything, but the writers sure as hell don't manage to get it across.
So this ep really left me with a sour feeling in my mouth, but bad scripts are nothing new these past seasons and it doesn't help that I'm currently rewatching with a friend and saw four flawless season 2 eps last night. So thank you again, for giving me at least a bit of hope :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I thought this ep was really badly written,

ha! I've decided I can no longer consider myself a judge of good TV writing any more. I thought this was really tight, which some great dialogue (but I don't consider myself a good judge, I go on whether I believe it and for most of this I really did). I usually pick up stuff where they are made to look incompetent (I hate that too!) - where the flashlight thing was "Oh that's convenient!" it made sense that they wouldn't have flashlights on them at the time (I thought).

but it didn't really look like Sam cared all that much about ripping Dean's heart out.

Yeah. It's a weird one because I do think some of us have seen this scene differently to others (for whatever reason). Personally I didn't get that at all. Sam was being honest and said things that have been needed to be said. No doubt Sam is still bitter about Dean's betrayal so yeah, I think he didn't sugar coat it as well as he could have done, but I admired that he had the guts to finally say what needed to be said. And I KNOW this is a contentious statement so I haven't said it to be argumentative. Some will see it has tough love, some will see it has Sam being an intensive bitch.

For me I don't need head canon to know Sam loves Dean more than anything. He does. He's Sam's entire world. It would have hurt Sam as much as it hurt Dean to say what he did. Sam has been thinking about this for the last 3 weeks. He wasn't going to bring it up, but Dean invited the conversation and he saw his opportunity. Sam's been sitting on this since he found out about Gadreel. I think he wanted to avoid it (knowing it would hurt Dean), but the opportunity came up and he said the one thing that Dean desperately needed to hear. Sure, Dean won't take it in the light it's meant and it will probably take an act of sacrifice (or saving) on Sam's part to see that Sam meant that he loves him, but he won't do what Dean did to him in order to save him.

[niightmoves.livejournal.com]

< THAT'S NOT TRUE! It's BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE that he wouldn't do what Dean did.>

I think you're reading a lot in to make that statement.

I'm really not getting it. Maybe I don't because Sam comes off here incredibly self centered, whiny and selfish. He's also conveniently choosing not to remember the times he said there was nothing he wouldnt do for Dean, "because you're my brother".

Yes, they need to work on their relationship, but approaching it with Sam being so cruel and uncaring of Dean, who he knows has no one else in the world seems unnecessary to me. You can talk with harsh truths to a person without cutting them to the bone the way Sam did. He seemed to, if not take pleasure in it, at least not care what the effect would be. For that, sorry, I'm calling him a huge dick.

Sam has reason to be angry. But marking a line in the sand, brother or hunter, is petty and childish, and we're supposed to believe he's the mature one? He's just as, if not MORE needy than Dean. He keeps coming back to Dean,it's his choice; but when he starts feeling smothered again (as he does, again and again) what does he do? Blame Dean. His blame is childish in the way that your child might say hurtful things to you in the deep down belief that you'll forgive them anything because you love them.

I was upset that Dean said he saved Sam because it was the "right thing to do" when I felt he was a nanosecond away from saying "because I love you". But I wasn't surprised, because how often has Dean been able to say he loves anyone? but doesn't Sam know that about Dean? Does that love Dean has for him even matter one iota? I didn't get the feeling it did at all.

I also didn't get the feeling AT ALL that Sam did this out of love. That's not tough love, either. Tough love is doing something for someones own good. I get the feeling Sam does this for his own good. So now, Dean is selfish for saving Sam, and Sam is selfish for not giving a shit how he leaves Dean as long as he gets to have his say, and his way. That Dean might not be mentally able to deal with it doesn't seem to matter to Sam.

I agree with the poster above, my feeling is Dean is too fragile to withstand this rejection and would probably end it.

Don't get me wrong. I love Sam. Really loved him- more than Dean- for his humanity, above all else. That's why it hurts me so badly. Sam is the one who you could count on for his empathy. But now, he's someone I don't like, don't know, do'nt understand. And frankly, I'm not sure I care to. People like that who hurt without care aren't people who I want to invest in. If the show allowed more than a 3 minute exchange at the end of the episode, maybe they could make things more clear. I find it muddled and far too open to personal interpretation.

If Sam is/was so concerned with his "agency" then let him walk away and give Dean some peace or at least the chance to end his life, go to heaven and rest. Not that Dean will ever find peace. Neither of them will because I believe these two are too damamged to ever be whole. But Sam put up with Dean for all these years- if he really can't accept Dean's failings, he should go, and let the story end.

[zubeneschamali.livejournal.com]

I think it's an indication of just how badly Sam was hurt by Dean tricking him into being possessed that he's reacting the way he is. If Sam wouldn't want to save Dean's life the way Dean saved his because of how Sam feels in the aftermath, doesn't that say something?

There's also the matter that Gadreel was the third time Sam's been forced to watch as something else used his body to kill people. Not wanting to force Dean to go through that, even at the cost of being left alone, sounds like love to me.

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

You've given me some food for thought in this review. As a lot of people probably were, the ending of this one left me feeling pretty sad. I guess I can kind of see it that way, that Sam wasn't saying he didn't love Dean or wouldn't save him. I mean, did you see how worried he looked when he was looking for Dean (who was passed out thanks to the pudding)? It does tie in with the different way they both approach things (like you said, that whole theme that goes back to Bloodlust). Your second to last section gives me a little hope - I would really like for their relationship to become stronger as a result.

His hair was loose again! (goes with my theory that his hair matches his sense of freedom)

OMG yes yes yes!!! This has totally been my theory as well... his hair was so restrained when he was possessed by Gadreel. It's looking so much better and more natural now :) Hope this will continue!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi.

Yep, that has left many a broken hear because it looks like the relationship is broken for good. People are angry with Sam for being so mean, but I maintain (even after reading ALL the stuff) that Sam was saying he loved him less. Just that they can't go on like think. Personally I think he's right. There's got to be a better way. I just hope that's what they are planning to do with this - starting looking for better, more positive ways of being brothers. Where both of them have a say. It'll take a long time (lots more eps yet!) but I honestly believe they will get there eventually.

Sam hair!! God, I hope lack of possession means lack of hair product! Yoga!Sam was to die for!

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

I've just posted my review so I won't rehash it. I agree with you to a degree. I think it's good that Sam is drawing a line, but what he didn't say to Dean is as important as what he said because I don't know that Dean heard what Sam intended. I suspect that what Dean heard first and foremost is "I don't love you as much as you love me." So, I'm not optimistic in the short term. I see a drawn out parallel between season eight and season nine with Dean going down a similar spiral that Sam went down with the trials, and Sam being forced at some point to put his money where his mouth is. I wonder if actually faced with a similar situation whether Sam will be able to live up to his principles, and if he can whether the results are as "positive" as he thinks they'll be. That would be a hard decision for a writer to make.

I think this is one of the better episodes of the season. Eric Charmelo and Nicole Snyder wrote it. I do have to add that I don't think that Sam was just being honest in this ep. I think there was some underlying intent to wound Dean with his words just as there was with Dean in season eight. I think that guilt did for Dean and will for Sam play into the decision that is eventually made -- presuming they continue the parallel with season eight.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

underlying intent to wound Dean with his words

Sam knows exactly how to hurt Dean, so you have to wonder.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Oh, my ears are ringing from your enthusiastic squee! :D But I should join really because I feel exactly the same way about Sam's speech in the end. In a way he pulled the last carpet away from under Dean's feet with it but the way Dean has been rescuing Sam at all costs for his own survival really can't continue. The old relationship with the older brother calling the shots without needing to question his intentions are over. I, too, don't think this is about some love amount competition but it's time for Dean to look at the reason he does things. Saving little Sammy worked for years because the hunter family thing was still intact. After John there was Bobby around. But since a while ago the whole world has turned upside down and rules are being re-writting all over the SP universe. I believe it's clever for the writers to finally take it there so they can start to redefine the story to take it to a new level. I mean, can you see Sam and Dean being aging hunters with Dean still saving Sammy all the time and letting the whole universe rotate around his hanging on to memories how the family used to work and trying to bend reality to this to not having to face the painful truth that things haven't been for a long time what they used to be when they were younger.
Wow. Seems I'm really as excited about this as you. Such a long speech. lol

I liked the MOTW story, too. It did mirror beautifully the sibling/family issue, like you said. And that fly-like trunk to suck on people was so distustingly funny (or funnily disgusting? lol)

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun! Oh yeah - it was a bit loud wasn't it? I was pre-empting all the Sam and episode hate by being louder than I probably needed to me. But. I also really loved what they did so yeah - lots of squee from my end.

I believe it's clever for the writers to finally take it there so they can start to redefine the story to take it to a new level.

Exactly! These guys are nearly 10 years older than when they started. Things have to change. You know how much I adore Dean being the big, awesome protective brother but there comes a time when he needs to see that that's ok - to a point. And that's what I see from Sam - telling Dean that there IS a point in which it's not ok to resurrect me. I still think Dean can be protective and Sam can look up to his big brother, but those dynamics probably have to change because of what they have been through. I think the massive love will still be there (god I hope so!!!)

[weesta.livejournal.com]

When I was watching the episode last night, I enjoyed the solid MotW. But it was the last 5 minutes that had me flailing on my couch. I am SO GLAD that a) Sam said what he said, b) neither brother was under the influence of some supernatural entity and c) neither one walked away.

Dean looked like Sam just kicked him in the teeth, and I understand that...but what Sam said needed to be said and not in a sarcastic/hurt "well, I'm just being honest" way. I LOVED that Sam gave voice to the idea that Dean is desperate not to be alone and that it completely flabbergasted Dean to hear it; like it's literally nothing he ever contemplated before.

I have so many fingers crossed that this will eventually move both of the boys up the spiral of understanding for each other.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

Oh yes yes! Neither was under the influence! That's a good point. So much important (and sometimes horrible) stuff is said when one of them is possessed or influenced in some way. This time it was real now it's out there to a point where either one can say "I didn't mean to say that of course because…." (though I did see someone say (not here) that Sam must still be influenced by Gadreel or Lucifer to say what he did. They really could;t accept that Sam could be that honest and strong (though they'd say cruel) by himself).

Dean's reaction was all sorts of awesome I reckon. It's gotta hurt - at the moment it's because he thinks Sam doesn't love him, but hopefully down the track he'll see that that's not the case and Sam was taking about so much more than that.

I have so many fingers crossed that this will eventually move both of the boys up the spiral of understanding for each other.

Yes yes!! Even as early as S1 we could see that they have different ways of thinking about each other. Surely this means we're heading to a broader, better understanding of each other (finally).

[alienat.livejournal.com]

So, yours is the only review I'm going to read because I trust you to be respectful in whatever you say and you would never hate on Sam or Dean (or anyone else for that matter). :)

I agree with what you said about Sam and Dean. I'm not that invested anymore, but yeah, I get where both are coming from. I know why Dean did what he did in 9.1 and I get why Sam said what he said in this episode. I do hope that Dean at least got a little bit of what Sam was trying to convey here, but like others I think most of him will take it as 'Sam doesn't love me as much as I do', because those two are not on the same page as to what constitutes love.

I didn't really care about the MotW though. I'm not one for the funny moments, they mostly make me cringe, like drugged!Dean. But that's just me and my silly brain. :D

As for the Sam-hate, people have a history of blaming the victim, especially in 'crimes' re consent, so I'm not all that surprised to hear that it's a battlefield out there. It makes me sad and angry, though.

[zara-zee.livejournal.com]

As for the Sam-hate, people have a history of blaming the victim, especially in 'crimes' re consent...

Ain't that the truth! That comment really resonated with me.

I understand why Dean feels so incredibly hurt, but I don't think his discomfort at being called out and confronted with Sam's viewpoint is more important than Sam's discomfort at Dean setting him up to be possessed. Sam has been possessed three times now and yes, he consented the second time with Lucifer, but given the situation, it was really, really dubious consent; it wasn't something he wanted! And the third time *his own brother set him up to be possessed*. So yes, Sam is entitled to his anger, I think, and hating on him for calmly expressing it seems a little...over-the-top...

Thanks, maybe it will help...

[jessalrynn.livejournal.com]

Can't help but wonder if Sam's inability to see the forest for the trees this time has something to do with the Mark of Cain on his brother. That thing, after all, involves siblings, and more, the siblings it involves are Sam and Dean's direct ancestors. The blood lines maybe make it worse?

Re: Thanks, maybe it will help...

[kassidy62.livejournal.com]

I thought Cain's descendants were wiped out in the flood (according to the Bible)

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

Have not watched the episode and hadn't been planning to until I read the first line of your ep reaction (stopped so as not to spoil myself too much) but I trust you implicitly and will watch the last two episodes back to back. SO glad you're in fandom, hon. Thanks for posting your reactions, both good and bad! :-)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Don;t get me wrong. It's painful! The boys aren't in a great place, but I'm actually quite impressed that they've allowed Sam to have a decent reaction to what Dean did. Plus, there's some great little broments (I thought anyway).

xoxo

[bluestar3317.livejournal.com]

I also liked the episode.

I appreciated your review. Best one I've read so far. Thanks!
:)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much! :))

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

My take, after thinking about last week (haven't seen this week) and being spoiled is a bit different. I think that Sam thinks he's being mature. I think he does need Dean as much as Dean needs him, but has always been unwilling to admit it (I could give canon examples, but Sam doesn't do well without Dean and I don't think he's ever really looked at that or doesn't want to). That doesn't lesson the truth that their are lines they shouldn't cross. However, I think Sam is also using the truth to hurt Dean. Dean gets angry, lashes out, hit, uses words and as the viewer it's always evident that it's from a place of anger. I think Sam is just as angry but he's more about control and I think he's using the truth to hurt Dean and lash out.

As I said to spnmonster, I don't think this story line isn't about who is right and who is wrong. They've both made bad decisions for the greater good and have both said hurtful things to the other. I think this is about putting Sam in the position where he will have to stand by what he's preaching and see that he is 'in' the relationship as much as Dean is. That some of the things they are together will become truths for Sam - like they keep each other human. I think Sam is going to have to come to see himself as a hero and savior, someone who can help Dean as much as he can receive Dean's help (I think that's already true, but Sam sure as hell doesn't. He thinks he's a burden.) I think this is not just a parallel to season 8, but to season 5, Maybe they are giving Sam the chance - finally - to be the one to save Dean - flipping things so that Dean has the active story arc and Sam has the emotional growth and makes the tough decisions.This will mean Dean has to trust Sam and admit that Sam can care for Dean too. (At least I hope this is where it's going)

I don't know, but I think that would mean emotional growth too. Hopefully they will learn to communicate and see themselves more honestly.

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

Adding, I think it's also good to remember Cas and Charlie would both be dead if Gadreel hadn't possessed Sam. I think part of what makes show interesting and I'm glad they're re-visiting it - is that black and white in S/D' world isn't easy to define. That line shifts. Yes, Dean violated Sam's autonomy, but in retrospect did he make a bad decision for the greater good? It could be argued that Sam, and Cas alive have a better chance of dealing with angels and hell, than if Sam had died. I think maybe that's part of the point.

I also think it's interesting that Dean is willing to kill without consideration. He is seeing things more black and white as he did in s.1 - a monster is a monster. I hope they are going somewhere with that. Maybe this is Sam's turn to keep Dean from walking a dark path.

I do have to wonder if in Sam and Dean's case if death is meant to be permanent. In traditional heroes journey, the hero's life is typically of more value than others, because they carry the burden of deciding the fate of many and the ability to either do it well or fuck it up royally. That is part of a heroes trials. Canon has told us that the dead should stay dead, but there is also the hint that certain beings/people are beyond the natural order (burning Crowley's bones didn't get rid of him). Sam and Dean are maybe two of the only people who can stand between the supernatural and humanity, so are their lives worth more> I think it;s an interesting question and maybe one Sam and Dean are going to have to struggle with.

I think if nothing else, people's reactions say that after 9 years they can still tell a story that we are emotionally invested in. :)

[katwoman76.livejournal.com]

I so agree with everything you said. And just have to add the shallow observation that someone really wanted tto give us ladies something to drool. I mean, not just Sam in his trainer outfit (single slim layer, shorts, barefoot)...no they even give us the camera slowly moving all the way up that body. ;) Hmmmmm

[ash48.livejournal.com]

YES! In all the drama of the last scene we haven't really had a chance to DROOL over yoga Sam!! what a delight that was! \o/ (I need to find myself some yoga Sam icons!)