9.13 episode reaction
Feb. 5th, 2014 08:13 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ash48Oh my god. I haven't done this in a while so here goes…SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
I haven't read any other reaction posts yet because I wanted to just put down my initial response before I read everything that was wrong with that episode. At the moment I am just so full of squee and OH MY GOD THEY WENT THERE that I just want to saviour it for a moment (this doesn't mean you can't harsh it because you guys know how much I love to chat about the ins and outs of the show - even when you don't agree with me).
I'm going to cut straight to the end because that's the part that I am so excited about. But I'm also pretty happy with the MoTW story so there will be something on that also.
I have deliberately stayed away from tumblr and twitter when checking reactions because I am pretty sure that Sam will be (one again) boo'd for what he said. So I am going to shout this from the roof tops because I am damn sure what Sam said will be taken the wrong way by some.
Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.
This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?).
This is about Sam telling Dean that there are LINES HE WOULD NOT CROSS to bring Dean BACK FROM THE DEAD. This is Sam saying that their lives ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN OTHERS. This is Sam telling Dean that if they were in the EXACT SAME SITUATION as they were when Sam was on the brink of death he would not bring Dean back by making deals or allowing something to be done to Dean that he knows Dean would not want. This is about acknowledging that just because you are family (and love someone) doesn't mean you should do something that endangers someone else's life or goes against what that person wants.
This is not even about Sam devaluing his life (maybe those scenes with Cas WAS about convincing Sam of that…). This is NOT Sam saying "I don't deserve to live because I'm not worth it". It's him saying that "I don't deserve to live MORE THAN Kevin - or more than anyone". NO one deserves to live more than someone else. WE CAN'T MAKES THOSE CHOICES JUST BECAUSE WE ARE FAMILY.
I think this is an amazing step forward for both Sam and Dean. I think it's a remarkable moment of actually communicating (OMG! They actually continued talking rather than pause at stupid moments. I know Sam left it on a bombshell for Dean - but there really wasn't much more to say (and actually it was a pretty tasty reveal about what most of S8 and now S9 has been about).
I THINK this is what Carver was trying to do at the beginning of S8. I think the message that there are lines that Dean is prepared to cross for Sam that Sam isn't prepared to cross for Dean is what Carver wanted to show us with Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory. It wasn't successful (I don't think), so I think he's tried it again this season. I think the message is much clearer this time.
Now. I'm not saying this isn't painful (because Sam words WERE a kick in the teeth to Dean AND to many fans as well I should think), but it desperately needed to be said. Remembering that Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't do everything he could to save Dean if he could. He just said there are LINES.
And this makes so much sense to me because way back in Season 2 I made a video called "Where Do We Draw the Line" and it was ALL ABOUT the lines the Winchesters cross to save each other. Mary did it to save John, John did it to save Dean, Dean did it to save Sam and Sam tried to do it to save Dean (from Hell). Dean did it AGAIN to save Sam and Sam has (finally!!) said "enough!". Because EVERY TIME THEY DO IT IT ENDS BADLY!
What's dead should stay dead.
(and before you yell "but if Dean didn't bring Sam back from the dead there wouldn't be a show" - that isn't actually the point. It's story telling, I am aware of that. OF COURSE Dean had to bring back Sam - it's just now become part of the emotional drama as well as the action).
It's fucking amazing and I am feeling so impressed that they are actually addressing such a major myth arc from the show - waaaay back to the beginning!
I am pretty sure Dean (and maybe fans) will make the assumption that Sam has just confessed that he doesn't love Dean. That he made a comment that he doesn't love Dean ENOUGH to cross those lines. THAT'S NOT TRUE! It's BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE that he wouldn't do what Dean did. That's not to say that Dean didn't do what he did out of love but Sam was SO right when he said he also did it for himself. The episode Bad Boys highlighted this also.
Is it a bad thing that Dean has been told this? Will this mean that Dean will spiral even further into depression? Maybe. But it might also be an incredible wake up call. I suspect it will take a few episodes (and maybe a major incident?) for it to sink in fully.
I am sure once I start reading other responses I will work out what it is that Sam needs to learn, but at the moment Sam seems so clear minded and mature about this. I'm so proud of him.
Dont' get me wrong. I feel massively for Dean. I really do. He's just had a major bombshell dropped on him and the bottom of his world has just fallen out. He totally believed what he did was right. Saving Sam has always been his number one goal - no matter what. Dean now has to start looking at why he saves Sam and what constitutes that "line" for him.
What the MoTW told up about the brothers
There's always a connection with the brothers and the MoTW. It took a while for me to make it, but once we found out that the "monsters" were siblings it because clearer. It's probably not a connection that's nice to make because it's about one sibling giving up the other because they've crossed a line. I don't think we can put either Sam or Dean directly into these roles but the final message is that "family" isn't an excuse for allowing the other to cause death. It also shows us how devastating being left alone is.
Sam and Dean have often argued on which monsters should live and which ones should die. This started way back to Blood Lust. Sam has often seen monsters in shades of grey, whereas Dean has seen them in black and white. Dean started to see more in grey (especially with Benny and wasn't he the one who let the girl go in Bitten?) but recently (again with Carver revisiting the past) Dean has been more single minded when deciding about monsters. Much of what Sam is saying about their roles in their hunting job (and lives) is about how they approach these things differently.
Why I see this as hopeful rather than hopelessly sad
I suppose it seems weird that I would be so excited about a story line that has one brother admitting that he wouldn't bring the other back from the dead (hee..only in Supernatural would we say something like that…), or having one brother be so brutally honest to devastate the other but damn if this isn't the closest they've come to hitting on one of the repeated problems between them. It's NOT easy. But it was never going to be. It shouldn't be. To have such an entrenched behaviour discussed and maybe even changed is an incredible step forward. I know some will think that Dean's behaviour of bringing Sam back from the dead shouldn't be changed (because he loves brother dammit), but it DOES cross many of the lines that even Dean himself has said shouldn't be crossed.
Personally, I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.
It might also mean that neither Sam or Dean should die again. Unless of course they want to throw that all back in Sam's face and have Dean dead and Sam is given an opportunity save him and cross said lines himself (I wouldn't put it passed this show to do that). I'm not sure how exactly they will show Dean understanding the depths of that, because it would actually mean Sam dying and Dean letting him go (and yes, I know Dean let Sam go in S5, but don't forget Carver is revisiting ALL these past issues so it looks like he has go through that again). Hopefully they've got a cunning plan in mind for working this all out.
Other Stuff
I haven't checked who wrote that episode but I liked it. It felt open (I think that was the frank discussions) and pretty tight. I didn't want Sam to be in peril (again) and Dean come to the rescue (again), but as it was crucial for the final convo I can see why it happened.
Sam looked amazing. His hair was loose again! (goes with my theory that his hair matches his sense of freedom). And of course tank top!Sam *dies*
They worked SO well together. Everything that's always there between them was there (eye rolls, bitch faces, smirks, silent signals, etc) which shows that even with them at such odds they fall so easily back into what they do best together.
If ANY ONE is worried that Sam would not do everything he could to save Dean, this episode (and the last one) shows Sam panicked and worried when he thinks Dean is in danger. I think that was deliberately shown so we are clear what Sam's words meant at the end.
Dean and food. :)) Drugged!Dean is always so adorable.
I feel like I have heaps more to say (like squeeing about us now knowing what Sam's "but that's not the problem" meant from 9.10), but I better stop there. :)
Ok guys. Bring it on! I figure I have missed something major here because having an episode that is SO huge in the brother relationship arc will mean that I will be seeing it with certain blinkers on. I know at the moment it looks like Dean is on the back foot but it it could also be the beginning of him taking a huge step forward. Hopefully Sam will be there to catch him if he falls. It would be awesome now if we had episodes where Sam could demonstrate his absolute love for Dean in ways that don't mean crossing those never ending Winchester lines.
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Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-05 03:19 pm (UTC)1, I'm still not sure Dean heard what Sam was really trying to say. Sam is all about autonomy and he was trying to say he would respect Dean's wishes. Dean heard "i wouldn't save you" --- so I'm not sure there was real communication there.
and 2, that is why Sam comes across as cruel when he is really "just being honest" (which, is sometimes Very Cruel but probably Absolutely Unavoidably Necessary by this point).
The monster parallels in this ep and last were a little confusing. Like, if your loved one is a monster you can't just stand blindly by and let them eat people. I guess the more direct parallel is that Sam can no longer stand idly by while Dean puts him first before the world. I knew that was going to sit hard with Sam way back at s8 finale and I am really glad they have kept that ball in the air. Sam jumped into the pit to save the world, he was willing to do it again -- but Dean pulled him back and Sam vacillated and now Kevin is dead for nothing. So people are getting hurt -- and Sam is trying to put his foot down to let Dean know that he doesn't want Dean always putting him first any more. It's very like Doctor Who when River was all blinded by her adoration for the Doctor, putting the Doctor's life before the Universe -- which the Doctor would never allow. So too Sam can't go on allowing Dean to put him eternally first.
ONE MORE THING. Sam is trying to break the cycle of codependency between them which has really gone too far. Dean is feeling it like Sam doesn't love him any more. But I think the time has come for Sam to be Tough on Dean. It is very hard to watch, as chomaisky put it, DEAN'S SAD FACE!!! ;_: but Dean needs to hear Sam say this stuff and know he means it, and figure out WHAT Sam means which I really think it the hardest part.
Final point: Is it *possible* for Dean to change? to not put Sammy first? isn't that hardwired into Dean Winchester??? how???? All I know is, for Dean to change, IT'S GONNA HURT. D:
Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-05 04:51 pm (UTC)See, I posit that Sam dying in 8.23 wouldn't have changed almost anything that happened after it. Perhaps the Crowley/Abaddon story, but Carver was never clear on exactly what closing the gates of Hell would accomplish, so I don't even think that is guaranteed.
If Sam died in 8.23, the angels would still have fallen. Cas would still be a powerless human. Metatron would still have needed to kill the prophet, and surely would have figured out another way to do it.
The difference would be that Dean would have been there alone to a) clean up the mess himself or b) go on a grief-stricken kamikaze mission that got himself killed. I don't think Dean was being manipulative when he told Sam in that church that they could figure it out together, that they had the tools, that they could still fight. Taking Sam out of that equation didn't make the world better.
I just personally hate that people (and Carver and Sam) are equating 8.23 with 9.1 because I think they are very different things.
Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-05 05:05 pm (UTC)except!
Kevin's death is an emotional crux for the both of them.
So, you can't just take it out of the equation and say it would have happened anyway.
True, 8.23 and 9.1 are very different things. But I am probably the only one in the world, who was more upset by Dean in the church and more okay with Dean saving Sam's life by trickery.
I agree with you that Dean wasn't being manipulative. I think he was very honest with the idea that they had tools now to deal with things without Sam sacrificing himself. But it was a hail Mary effort that Dean hadn't thought through -- and he pulled Sam out without taking into account that it would kill him anyway. Sam was prepared and ready to seal the gates and Dean pulled him back, putting Sam first before the world. This to me is a much more clear ethical problem -- maybe just because I watched Wrath of Khan at a crucial age and I will always remember crying my heart out as Spock bravely put the needs of the many before the needs of the few -- or the one. ;_;
For Dean to save Sam by Angelic possession was to me, something I would have done, because Sam didn't seem to be thinking clearly at that point. His readiness to die *for the trials*, a goal they had both agreed on, was one thing, but his *needless death* as Dean saw it, was VERY MUCH another. Dean went on information from Cas about whether he could trust "Ezekiel" and he trusted Cas's word. The 9.1 argument is much thornier to me, because it is about Right to Die and also Mental Health rights. So I certainly can't come down on it and say one thing or another about whether Dean was in the right or in the wrong. He acted on instinct, and I think Sam is definitely in the right *NOW* to call him on that for the future. Dean's certainty that what he did was right and that he would do it again -- that's what Sam is correct to shake up. imo
In the end I'm super impressed with our Show that they are still so successful after so many seasons in making us care passionately about these things.
Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-05 08:26 pm (UTC)No. You definitely are not. And I know of others as well.
The Metatron story still would have happened -- but other tragedies the story is not concentrating on ATM, but one can assume is going on in the background, would not be occurring.
Once Dean stopped Sam sacrificing himself to save the world, it just seems a truism that he would stop him from dying for nothing. The way he saw it, Sam was so emotionally and physically beaten down at that point, of course he would go along, because he had nothing left to fight with, nothing to give to save himself and not enough self worth to see his essential value.
I don't see these as such distinct acts, because the second one merely completes what he did in the first. And, to me, the first is where he went off the reservation. I like how you put it as a Hail Mary pass -- not realizing that stopping Sam would not save him, that more intervention would be needed.
Sam is definitely right to call Dean out on stopping him from completing the trials. That would have been a worthy way for anyone to go. And to point out that at this point hunting means very different things to the two of them.
Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-05 10:17 pm (UTC)When I consider the progression of the season I totally understand why Sam is now mad at Dean for stopping the trials. Sam starts out intending to stay out of hunting. He's done. Dean chides him on not looking for Kevin (which is fair) and for letting down all the people in danger by not hunting. He was practically saying that Sam was personally responsible for each and every death that happened due to supernatural means when Sam didn't hunt. Dean makes it pretty clear that Sam, and to be fair Dean's, individual happiness is less important than saving the world. Sam doesn't seem to buy into this, but at the church it becomes obvious how much of Dean's criticisms Sam has internalized. So Dean presents an endgame, close the Gates of Hell and save the world for demons. Sam ends up doing the trials and is ready to do exactly what it takes, even if it kills him. Suddenly, just as Sam is ready to save the world Dean does a 180 and announces that Sam as an individual is MORE IMPORTANT than the world. Dean didn't mean that Sam wasn't worthwhile! Sam was confused when Dean told him he was a worse brother than Benny and always failed him. Plus, Bonus! we can cure demons and save the world while you live. So Sam gives up the trials because Dean wants him to. Because Dean believes in him. And because Sam isn't suicidal. Then Dean finds out that Sam is going to die anyway. And he tricks Sam into doing what Dean wants. his actions say he doesn't believe in Sam that everything he said in the church was a lie. He got Sam into the trials by lying (even to himself) that the trials were more important than either one of them. He gets Sam out of the trials by lying about how he trusts Sam. And all Sam can see is that if he closed the Gates of Hell Abbadon wouldn't be a threat. Those soldiers she took over would be alive and Sam's body wouldn't have killed Kevin and Sam wouldn't have to live with the memory of watching himself kill Kevin.
Now that said, with Sam's history of being possessed I do think that hiding the truth about Gadreel was indefensible. Sam had the right to want to be in control of his own body. But the wrong of not closing Hell (assuming that there wouldn't be repercussions from closing it a pretty big assumption) far exceeds the damage done by Gadreel possessing Sam.
Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-06 12:06 am (UTC)Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-06 12:31 am (UTC)Saying it's a good thing for Sam to be alive is fine, except that Dean only sees it in terms of Dean not being alone. Sam thought closing the Gates was important. But more important was not killing a friend just to stay alive. That's what happened. Kevin died by Sam's hand because Dean hadn't let Sam go. Questioning whether he is worth more than Kevin is a natural reaction, especially because he was kept alive by having his body violated.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 07:40 pm (UTC)Sorry you are not feeling it. I was very much in that place last season. :(
Re: Bi-Bro Vow: I solemny swear that I love them both.
Date: 2014-02-06 04:23 pm (UTC)I'm still not sure Dean heard what Sam was really trying to say
I agree. I made a comment above about Dean hearing some of it and what I meant was in the scene before Sam mentioned how he would feel if he had been killed because Gadreel was in him. I definitely think Dean didn't hear what Sam was saying.
I guess the more direct parallel is that Sam can no longer stand idly by while Dean puts him first before the world.
Yeah. I think they were trying to draw these parallels. I'm not sure they work directly but the fact that siblings were the monsters I think certain parallels are being drawn.
and OH GOD! Everything else! I wish I was so damn eloquent when it comes to trying to say this stuff!! It's DOES hurt to see Dean so hurt. It also hurts to see Sam hurt. And it hurts buckets to see them not being the warm fuzzy brothers that we've come to love over the years. But this behaviour has been around since S2 (more so since S4) and even though the romantic notion of "I'll do anything for you because you're my brother" is lovely, there's some not so lovely things going on at the moment that really need to be addressed. I just love that it's so damn DEEP!
Thanks so much. I was beginning to feel so down about all this. I'm glad there are some people (and in this thread actually quite a few) that can also see Dean needs to hear what Sam has said.