9.13 episode reaction
Feb. 5th, 2014 08:13 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ash48Oh my god. I haven't done this in a while so here goes…SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
I haven't read any other reaction posts yet because I wanted to just put down my initial response before I read everything that was wrong with that episode. At the moment I am just so full of squee and OH MY GOD THEY WENT THERE that I just want to saviour it for a moment (this doesn't mean you can't harsh it because you guys know how much I love to chat about the ins and outs of the show - even when you don't agree with me).
I'm going to cut straight to the end because that's the part that I am so excited about. But I'm also pretty happy with the MoTW story so there will be something on that also.
I have deliberately stayed away from tumblr and twitter when checking reactions because I am pretty sure that Sam will be (one again) boo'd for what he said. So I am going to shout this from the roof tops because I am damn sure what Sam said will be taken the wrong way by some.
Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.
This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?).
This is about Sam telling Dean that there are LINES HE WOULD NOT CROSS to bring Dean BACK FROM THE DEAD. This is Sam saying that their lives ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN OTHERS. This is Sam telling Dean that if they were in the EXACT SAME SITUATION as they were when Sam was on the brink of death he would not bring Dean back by making deals or allowing something to be done to Dean that he knows Dean would not want. This is about acknowledging that just because you are family (and love someone) doesn't mean you should do something that endangers someone else's life or goes against what that person wants.
This is not even about Sam devaluing his life (maybe those scenes with Cas WAS about convincing Sam of that…). This is NOT Sam saying "I don't deserve to live because I'm not worth it". It's him saying that "I don't deserve to live MORE THAN Kevin - or more than anyone". NO one deserves to live more than someone else. WE CAN'T MAKES THOSE CHOICES JUST BECAUSE WE ARE FAMILY.
I think this is an amazing step forward for both Sam and Dean. I think it's a remarkable moment of actually communicating (OMG! They actually continued talking rather than pause at stupid moments. I know Sam left it on a bombshell for Dean - but there really wasn't much more to say (and actually it was a pretty tasty reveal about what most of S8 and now S9 has been about).
I THINK this is what Carver was trying to do at the beginning of S8. I think the message that there are lines that Dean is prepared to cross for Sam that Sam isn't prepared to cross for Dean is what Carver wanted to show us with Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory. It wasn't successful (I don't think), so I think he's tried it again this season. I think the message is much clearer this time.
Now. I'm not saying this isn't painful (because Sam words WERE a kick in the teeth to Dean AND to many fans as well I should think), but it desperately needed to be said. Remembering that Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't do everything he could to save Dean if he could. He just said there are LINES.
And this makes so much sense to me because way back in Season 2 I made a video called "Where Do We Draw the Line" and it was ALL ABOUT the lines the Winchesters cross to save each other. Mary did it to save John, John did it to save Dean, Dean did it to save Sam and Sam tried to do it to save Dean (from Hell). Dean did it AGAIN to save Sam and Sam has (finally!!) said "enough!". Because EVERY TIME THEY DO IT IT ENDS BADLY!
What's dead should stay dead.
(and before you yell "but if Dean didn't bring Sam back from the dead there wouldn't be a show" - that isn't actually the point. It's story telling, I am aware of that. OF COURSE Dean had to bring back Sam - it's just now become part of the emotional drama as well as the action).
It's fucking amazing and I am feeling so impressed that they are actually addressing such a major myth arc from the show - waaaay back to the beginning!
I am pretty sure Dean (and maybe fans) will make the assumption that Sam has just confessed that he doesn't love Dean. That he made a comment that he doesn't love Dean ENOUGH to cross those lines. THAT'S NOT TRUE! It's BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE that he wouldn't do what Dean did. That's not to say that Dean didn't do what he did out of love but Sam was SO right when he said he also did it for himself. The episode Bad Boys highlighted this also.
Is it a bad thing that Dean has been told this? Will this mean that Dean will spiral even further into depression? Maybe. But it might also be an incredible wake up call. I suspect it will take a few episodes (and maybe a major incident?) for it to sink in fully.
I am sure once I start reading other responses I will work out what it is that Sam needs to learn, but at the moment Sam seems so clear minded and mature about this. I'm so proud of him.
Dont' get me wrong. I feel massively for Dean. I really do. He's just had a major bombshell dropped on him and the bottom of his world has just fallen out. He totally believed what he did was right. Saving Sam has always been his number one goal - no matter what. Dean now has to start looking at why he saves Sam and what constitutes that "line" for him.
What the MoTW told up about the brothers
There's always a connection with the brothers and the MoTW. It took a while for me to make it, but once we found out that the "monsters" were siblings it because clearer. It's probably not a connection that's nice to make because it's about one sibling giving up the other because they've crossed a line. I don't think we can put either Sam or Dean directly into these roles but the final message is that "family" isn't an excuse for allowing the other to cause death. It also shows us how devastating being left alone is.
Sam and Dean have often argued on which monsters should live and which ones should die. This started way back to Blood Lust. Sam has often seen monsters in shades of grey, whereas Dean has seen them in black and white. Dean started to see more in grey (especially with Benny and wasn't he the one who let the girl go in Bitten?) but recently (again with Carver revisiting the past) Dean has been more single minded when deciding about monsters. Much of what Sam is saying about their roles in their hunting job (and lives) is about how they approach these things differently.
Why I see this as hopeful rather than hopelessly sad
I suppose it seems weird that I would be so excited about a story line that has one brother admitting that he wouldn't bring the other back from the dead (hee..only in Supernatural would we say something like that…), or having one brother be so brutally honest to devastate the other but damn if this isn't the closest they've come to hitting on one of the repeated problems between them. It's NOT easy. But it was never going to be. It shouldn't be. To have such an entrenched behaviour discussed and maybe even changed is an incredible step forward. I know some will think that Dean's behaviour of bringing Sam back from the dead shouldn't be changed (because he loves brother dammit), but it DOES cross many of the lines that even Dean himself has said shouldn't be crossed.
Personally, I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.
It might also mean that neither Sam or Dean should die again. Unless of course they want to throw that all back in Sam's face and have Dean dead and Sam is given an opportunity save him and cross said lines himself (I wouldn't put it passed this show to do that). I'm not sure how exactly they will show Dean understanding the depths of that, because it would actually mean Sam dying and Dean letting him go (and yes, I know Dean let Sam go in S5, but don't forget Carver is revisiting ALL these past issues so it looks like he has go through that again). Hopefully they've got a cunning plan in mind for working this all out.
Other Stuff
I haven't checked who wrote that episode but I liked it. It felt open (I think that was the frank discussions) and pretty tight. I didn't want Sam to be in peril (again) and Dean come to the rescue (again), but as it was crucial for the final convo I can see why it happened.
Sam looked amazing. His hair was loose again! (goes with my theory that his hair matches his sense of freedom). And of course tank top!Sam *dies*
They worked SO well together. Everything that's always there between them was there (eye rolls, bitch faces, smirks, silent signals, etc) which shows that even with them at such odds they fall so easily back into what they do best together.
If ANY ONE is worried that Sam would not do everything he could to save Dean, this episode (and the last one) shows Sam panicked and worried when he thinks Dean is in danger. I think that was deliberately shown so we are clear what Sam's words meant at the end.
Dean and food. :)) Drugged!Dean is always so adorable.
I feel like I have heaps more to say (like squeeing about us now knowing what Sam's "but that's not the problem" meant from 9.10), but I better stop there. :)
Ok guys. Bring it on! I figure I have missed something major here because having an episode that is SO huge in the brother relationship arc will mean that I will be seeing it with certain blinkers on. I know at the moment it looks like Dean is on the back foot but it it could also be the beginning of him taking a huge step forward. Hopefully Sam will be there to catch him if he falls. It would be awesome now if we had episodes where Sam could demonstrate his absolute love for Dean in ways that don't mean crossing those never ending Winchester lines.
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no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:02 pm (UTC)My take on Sam's 'I would not do the same thing' is because he respects Dean's right to make his own decisions. Sam usually follows Dean, allowing him to make most of the decisions in their lives; even in S5 he wanted approval before doing what needed to be done,
I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:02 pm (UTC)Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol.
Anyway, not harshing your squee and I'm GLAD that there are still people who are excited about the show. Lord knows we need it to keep fandom going so that we can all write/read/draw more gay porn lol.
ETA: The first thing I thought when that was over is that I could imagine a coda with Dean eating a bullet after that scene. Maybe I should write it.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:24 pm (UTC)Even before I read your post, I was feeling a lot better about the episode (especially that final scene) this morning than I did last night, but I don't think I'll ever get to the levels of squee that you and some have reached. Or, for that matter, the abysmal levels of hatred I've seen from others. I seem to be stuck in the middle. (Maybe because I'm a Dean!girl who loves Sam? IDK.) In any case, I'm still recovering. And I definitely need a rewatch. :)
I do love what you said regarding the MOTW situation paralleling that of Sam and Dean. I loved that part, and kudos to the writers for doing it.
I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.
I so, SO hope that you're right, and I really hope that Cain's Mark has something to do with it. I can take reveals like last night's IF the final result is a stronger brotherly relationship (breaking eggs to make the omelet, so to speak), but I can't if all Show is going to do is keep jerking our chain. So yeah, I really hope you're right about this.
*tentatively rebuilding hope*
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:34 pm (UTC)I am kinda dreading that Sam will be proven wrong (in crossing lines) because the truth is, Sam never gets his say without blowback!
Yeah. And this will be what makes this all fall apart. Especially is the fandom reaction is anything to go by (now that I've had a chance to check some out). They've made Dean look like the one who has been wronged by Sam's words where Sam has really spoken about some home truths that Dean does really need to take on board.
It's sad in many ways because what Sam has been through as been COMPLETELY overlooked. We never got to see the effect of the possession and Dean's deception has really had on him so everybody (and wow, I think everybody) see's Sam's reaction as being harsh. We only see Dean being devastated hearing the truth rather than acknowledging that Dean needs to be devastated after his choice. Not to say it isn't horrible for Dean and hearing Sam say what he did hurts but I can't help think it needed to be said.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:39 pm (UTC)Thanks for expressing it all so well!
"Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.
This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?)."
But of course, this is exactly how Dean is going to see it, which is why it feels like such a kick in the stomach. Even if it was a much needed kick! I think you might be right, they might be aiming to bring Dean even lower before patching this up - hence the heavy drinking making a reappearance. But I too, hope this will be the making of them.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:43 pm (UTC)It is and I would love not to be going through this again. I know many people have jumped ship because, yeah, it's re-hashing it all over again. I think i've actually come to accept that Sam is always hated - no matter what he does. Even after being a victim no one seems to see his pov. I actually think the show did a pretty good job of allowing him to speak tonight, which is probably why I'm so happy. But yeah - sick of the infighting (I wasn't part of it all during S4 so maybe I'm not so jaded).
Does he care about the Mark of Cain that is branded on to Dean's arm?
It would appear not - and I think that's really sad too. I don't know why they let that slide so easily. And yet tonight Sam was all panicky when he knew Dean was in danger. I don't see Sam not liking Dean, but I think I am blinked in that area.
Also, I take issue massive issue with the line about Dean only being willing to sacrifice if he doesn't get hurt, because we know (and Sam knows) that's bullshit. That line reminds me of Dean randomly blaming Sam for having no soul, so I'll let it slide on writer fuckery lol.
Yeah. I agree. I would say that's part of Sam's anger but it's a shame they made him say that. Sam knows that's not true. If it's deliberate then that will be about making Sam have to eat his words later on.
Lord knows we need it to keep fandom going so that we can all write/read/draw more gay porn lol.
MOAR porn is needed!!!
And honestly, I don't know why I'm still this hyped about the show. I actually think it's because I didn't think they would ever address the "crossing the line" issue. But maybe it's because I just want to still love it? Or maybe I keep expecting it to be so bad that I end up being even happier when it's doing something that surprises me.
xx
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:52 pm (UTC)I think most people realize Dean has a harder time growing/ changing. Plus, since he was four, his prime directive has been to take care of Sam. Having that ingrained into at such a young age as part of a tragedy, it isn't going to be easy for Dean to give it up. Regardless of how John presented that expectation to him, it would've been so easy to twist that expectation in his(Dean's) mind into something more (save Sam at all costs). Of course Dean is saving Sam for himself....what else would he have to do if Sam weren't there? I almost commented on your post last week on why Dean is so broken over Kevin's death and his responsibility there and not what he did to Sam...because what he did to Sam was worse, especially in Dean's own mind. As horrible as Kevin's death is, it easier for Dean to face than doing anything horrible to Sam, the person he has been responsible for most of his life. If he has failed at his "prime directive", where does that leave him?
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:55 pm (UTC)It scares me a little that Dean believes he did the RIGHT thing saving his brother's life over and over again. In S8 finale Dean placed his brother's life before countless people who are suffering from the demons walking the earth. I thought Dean knew he just had to because he loved Sam too much to let go, but he believes it is right? He and Sam were not the only ones who worked their asses off to close the gates of Hell, there were also innocent ones killed as collateral damage. I understand that he was desperate to talk Sam out of his sacrifice back then, but after some time he still could use "right" to describe what he did in the church... I think, maybe, his hunter self should know better? But maybe in defending himself he just let the word slip. I dunno.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:56 pm (UTC)I guess right now, Dean feels pathetic for staying with Sam, and I don't know why Sam is staying with Dean. I totally get every word you are saying, but that's my gut reaction and it's hard to get past that, you know? I don't know what the endgame is really, because I've been saying forever that Sam needs to "save" Dean this time, but now that would seem to be contradictory to what Carver's POV seems to be telling me. So without that hope, I'm struggling to find something to root for.
ETA: It's also up to the writers to stop putting them in contrived situations where Sam almost dies and Dean has to choose between saving him or, in effect, ending the show lol.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:06 pm (UTC)I have this very weird way of looking at this as Sam being the only one who can actually keep Dean "human" (Dean's even said this) and this is a great example of this. Dean DOES cross lines. I don't think even the most one eyed Dean girls can deny that. Dean DID cross a major line when allowing an angel to possess Sam without his knowledge or consent. If Sam doesn't say something about this NO ONE will. He's the only one. He'll be hated for it. Dean will be incredibly hurt by it but what should happen is that it should be Dean's saviour. Sam should be Dean's saviour by knowing Dean well enough to call him on it (I think the monster in the ep killing people may have been representing Dean - his sister tried to save him but he didn't listen. Let's hope the opposite happens to Dean and he DOES listen).
Of course, knowing this show they'll twist it back to somehow making Sam wrong in what he's done but if they are going in the direction I am hoping they are going this will be what saves Dean from going completely going dark side.
Sam will be called to task also. Even if it's to say - don't kick your brother while he's down! How about say that all that important stuff and then give him a hug and tell him you love him!! (cause I know Sam DOES love him - more than anything).
And here's the final thing. This show IS about their brotherhood love and bond. EVERYONE connected to the shows says it and knows it. All of this is about building a drama that will mean that when they DO finally see eye to eye (which they WILL) it will be even more powerful because issues that have never really been settled between them (and Dean's dependence on Sam is one of them) are being addressed. Considering we have at least another season they have lots to delve into yet!
And also. That ep was ALL SAM AND DEAN!! \o/ And aside from the underlying issues between them it was pretty much old school. Great stuff!
xoxo
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:13 pm (UTC)I never forget that Dean is amazing and has a heart bigger than anyone else on the show. A heart that leads him to make dubious decisions.
xoxo
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Date: 2014-02-05 02:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:29 pm (UTC)I get that people are feeling Dean's hurt, and Dean's inability to read Sam's rejection of being on the receiving or giving end of that particular destructive model of love as anything but a rejection of love. I get that there's a sense of extreme risk, because so much of Dean is tied up in that language he speaks. But. Sam just got translated into that language and it literally erased him. Sam CANNOT try to reach out to Dean by speaking that language, accepting those terms. That way madness lies. He has to take the risk of standing by other terms.
ETA: my metaphor may be a bit confused there.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:32 pm (UTC)This is also how I felt about the beginning of S8. A totally contrived conflict between them because Sam didn't look for Dean (which STILL pisses me off) I am less annoyed by Sam saying what he did tonight than I did with them making him a brother that didn't even try to look for Dean).
I think, ultimately, the current writers don't have the nuance to get across what Sam is trying to say without it sounded like he's being cruel or doesn't care.
Ok. I think I'm getting a better picture about why fans are pissed of with Sam (I seriously couldn't figure it out). Sam is coming across as cruel. That IS sad to hear that - because I didn't see it like that (and I know we all have different ways of perceiving). It's weird for me then because I think we all(maybe all??) expected a huge backlash from Sam when he learned the truth about what Dean did. I'm not sure what fans expected Sam to do though? Just accept it? Say thank you? Scream and punch Dean? Instead he told some home truths because he genuinely sees a problem here. Maybe that's too passive aggressive and Sam just needed to say "fuck you, don't do that again".
But yeah, I think the fact that they haven't allowed Sam to say stuff and maybe follow it up with a "but I still love you man" is what makes it so cruel. AND that we get all this from Dean's POV only.
I think that's why I was so amazed by that final scene. Sam actually looked thoughtful and in control (first time in forever) and it seemed like Dean was actually hearing some of what Sam had to say. The end was horrid for Dean and he will totally take that as Sam not loving him (more contrived drama?) which will probably created all sorts of angst for the future episodes. I hope not. I would like to see this as a turning point. Dean may spiral down and Sam will have to be his saviour.
Even though it looks like these two shouldn't be together they WILL find a way back to each other. And I'm looking forward (I think!) to that journey. (Of course, if they just had sex it would solve everything)
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:44 pm (UTC)That was the point in reading reactions where my jaw went through the floorboards and ended up in the basement.
I think the person who commented on Monica's post about how Dean and Sam are operating on different definitions of love was spot-on. And I understand where the urge to yell at Sam to MAKE Dean understand are coming from. But I really don't think that's in Sam's power, or Dean's.
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Date: 2014-02-05 02:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 02:49 pm (UTC)