9.13 episode reaction

[ash48]

Oh my god. I haven't done this in a while so here goes…SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

I haven't read any other reaction posts yet because I wanted to just put down my initial response before I read everything that was wrong with that episode. At the moment I am just so full of squee and OH MY GOD THEY WENT THERE that I just want to saviour it for a moment (this doesn't mean you can't harsh it because you guys know how much I love to chat about the ins and outs of the show - even when you don't agree with me).

I'm going to cut straight to the end because that's the part that I am so excited about. But I'm also pretty happy with the MoTW story so there will be something on that also.

I have deliberately stayed away from tumblr and twitter when checking reactions because I am pretty sure that Sam will be (one again) boo'd for what he said. So I am going to shout this from the roof tops because I am damn sure what Sam said will be taken the wrong way by some.

Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't save his brother if his life was in danger. He DID NOT say that he doesn't love his brother.

This DOES NOT prove that Sam loves Dean less that Dean loves Sam (this is going to be a thing isn't it?).

This is about Sam telling Dean that there are LINES HE WOULD NOT CROSS to bring Dean BACK FROM THE DEAD. This is Sam saying that their lives ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN OTHERS. This is Sam telling Dean that if they were in the EXACT SAME SITUATION as they were when Sam was on the brink of death he would not bring Dean back by making deals or allowing something to be done to Dean that he knows Dean would not want. This is about acknowledging that just because you are family (and love someone) doesn't mean you should do something that endangers someone else's life or goes against what that person wants.

This is not even about Sam devaluing his life (maybe those scenes with Cas WAS about convincing Sam of that…). This is NOT Sam saying "I don't deserve to live because I'm not worth it". It's him saying that "I don't deserve to live MORE THAN Kevin - or more than anyone". NO one deserves to live more than someone else. WE CAN'T MAKES THOSE CHOICES JUST BECAUSE WE ARE FAMILY.

I think this is an amazing step forward for both Sam and Dean. I think it's a remarkable moment of actually communicating (OMG! They actually continued talking rather than pause at stupid moments. I know Sam left it on a bombshell for Dean - but there really wasn't much more to say (and actually it was a pretty tasty reveal about what most of S8 and now S9 has been about).

I THINK this is what Carver was trying to do at the beginning of S8. I think the message that there are lines that Dean is prepared to cross for Sam that Sam isn't prepared to cross for Dean is what Carver wanted to show us with Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory. It wasn't successful (I don't think), so I think he's tried it again this season. I think the message is much clearer this time.

Now. I'm not saying this isn't painful (because Sam words WERE a kick in the teeth to Dean AND to many fans as well I should think), but it desperately needed to be said. Remembering that Sam DID NOT SAY that he wouldn't do everything he could to save Dean if he could. He just said there are LINES.

And this makes so much sense to me because way back in Season 2 I made a video called "Where Do We Draw the Line" and it was ALL ABOUT the lines the Winchesters cross to save each other. Mary did it to save John, John did it to save Dean, Dean did it to save Sam and Sam tried to do it to save Dean (from Hell). Dean did it AGAIN to save Sam and Sam has (finally!!) said "enough!". Because EVERY TIME THEY DO IT IT ENDS BADLY!

What's dead should stay dead.

(and before you yell "but if Dean didn't bring Sam back from the dead there wouldn't be a show" - that isn't actually the point. It's story telling, I am aware of that. OF COURSE Dean had to bring back Sam - it's just now become part of the emotional drama as well as the action).

It's fucking amazing and I am feeling so impressed that they are actually addressing such a major myth arc from the show - waaaay back to the beginning!

I am pretty sure Dean (and maybe fans) will make the assumption that Sam has just confessed that he doesn't love Dean. That he made a comment that he doesn't love Dean ENOUGH to cross those lines. THAT'S NOT TRUE! It's BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE that he wouldn't do what Dean did. That's not to say that Dean didn't do what he did out of love but Sam was SO right when he said he also did it for himself. The episode Bad Boys highlighted this also.

Is it a bad thing that Dean has been told this? Will this mean that Dean will spiral even further into depression? Maybe. But it might also be an incredible wake up call. I suspect it will take a few episodes (and maybe a major incident?) for it to sink in fully.

I am sure once I start reading other responses I will work out what it is that Sam needs to learn, but at the moment Sam seems so clear minded and mature about this. I'm so proud of him.

Dont' get me wrong. I feel massively for Dean. I really do. He's just had a major bombshell dropped on him and the bottom of his world has just fallen out. He totally believed what he did was right. Saving Sam has always been his number one goal - no matter what. Dean now has to start looking at why he saves Sam and what constitutes that "line" for him.

What the MoTW told up about the brothers

There's always a connection with the brothers and the MoTW. It took a while for me to make it, but once we found out that the "monsters" were siblings it because clearer. It's probably not a connection that's nice to make because it's about one sibling giving up the other because they've crossed a line. I don't think we can put either Sam or Dean directly into these roles but the final message is that "family" isn't an excuse for allowing the other to cause death. It also shows us how devastating being left alone is.

Sam and Dean have often argued on which monsters should live and which ones should die. This started way back to Blood Lust. Sam has often seen monsters in shades of grey, whereas Dean has seen them in black and white. Dean started to see more in grey (especially with Benny and wasn't he the one who let the girl go in Bitten?) but recently (again with Carver revisiting the past) Dean has been more single minded when deciding about monsters. Much of what Sam is saying about their roles in their hunting job (and lives) is about how they approach these things differently.

Why I see this as hopeful rather than hopelessly sad

I suppose it seems weird that I would be so excited about a story line that has one brother admitting that he wouldn't bring the other back from the dead (hee..only in Supernatural would we say something like that…), or having one brother be so brutally honest to devastate the other but damn if this isn't the closest they've come to hitting on one of the repeated problems between them. It's NOT easy. But it was never going to be. It shouldn't be. To have such an entrenched behaviour discussed and maybe even changed is an incredible step forward. I know some will think that Dean's behaviour of bringing Sam back from the dead shouldn't be changed (because he loves brother dammit), but it DOES cross many of the lines that even Dean himself has said shouldn't be crossed.

Personally, I think this will (eventually) mean that their relationship is much, much stronger. I figure it will be a long journey (and it will be very interesting to see how the Mark plays into it) but I am thrilled to see the relationship being stripped back so dramatically because it means it will be built back even more dramatically.

It might also mean that neither Sam or Dean should die again. Unless of course they want to throw that all back in Sam's face and have Dean dead and Sam is given an opportunity save him and cross said lines himself (I wouldn't put it passed this show to do that). I'm not sure how exactly they will show Dean understanding the depths of that, because it would actually mean Sam dying and Dean letting him go (and yes, I know Dean let Sam go in S5, but don't forget Carver is revisiting ALL these past issues so it looks like he has go through that again). Hopefully they've got a cunning plan in mind for working this all out.


Other Stuff

I haven't checked who wrote that episode but I liked it. It felt open (I think that was the frank discussions) and pretty tight. I didn't want Sam to be in peril (again) and Dean come to the rescue (again), but as it was crucial for the final convo I can see why it happened.

Sam looked amazing. His hair was loose again! (goes with my theory that his hair matches his sense of freedom). And of course tank top!Sam *dies*

They worked SO well together. Everything that's always there between them was there (eye rolls, bitch faces, smirks, silent signals, etc) which shows that even with them at such odds they fall so easily back into what they do best together.

If ANY ONE is worried that Sam would not do everything he could to save Dean, this episode (and the last one) shows Sam panicked and worried when he thinks Dean is in danger. I think that was deliberately shown so we are clear what Sam's words meant at the end.

Dean and food. :)) Drugged!Dean is always so adorable.

I feel like I have heaps more to say (like squeeing about us now knowing what Sam's "but that's not the problem" meant from 9.10), but I better stop there. :)


Ok guys. Bring it on! I figure I have missed something major here because having an episode that is SO huge in the brother relationship arc will mean that I will be seeing it with certain blinkers on. I know at the moment it looks like Dean is on the back foot but it it could also be the beginning of him taking a huge step forward. Hopefully Sam will be there to catch him if he falls. It would be awesome now if we had episodes where Sam could demonstrate his absolute love for Dean in ways that don't mean crossing those never ending Winchester lines.

Comments

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

The Sam-bashing out there is unreal.

I get that people are feeling Dean's hurt, and Dean's inability to read Sam's rejection of being on the receiving or giving end of that particular destructive model of love as anything but a rejection of love. I get that there's a sense of extreme risk, because so much of Dean is tied up in that language he speaks. But. Sam just got translated into that language and it literally erased him. Sam CANNOT try to reach out to Dean by speaking that language, accepting those terms. That way madness lies. He has to take the risk of standing by other terms.

ETA: my metaphor may be a bit confused there.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I love your confusion and your metaphors.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Thank you for commenting on that, uh, remarkable piece of spn_heavymeta "meta."

That was the point in reading reactions where my jaw went through the floorboards and ended up in the basement.

I think the person who commented on Monica's post about how Dean and Sam are operating on different definitions of love was spot-on. And I understand where the urge to yell at Sam to MAKE Dean understand are coming from. But I really don't think that's in Sam's power, or Dean's.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see either the author or the comm has taken that post down. Good.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I saw that - they did reply to me first saying "I suppose not" to my this ain't really meta comment...

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

"Monica's post about how Dean and Sam are operating on different definitions of love was spot-on. " This is an interesting thought. Would you mind linking to this post?

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

It was a comment on her main post, here, that I think hit the nail on the head:

http://monicawoe.livejournal.com/136579.html?thread=1565059#t1565059

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link! That comment was very well stated (and true).

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

Sam gets hate whenever he puts that hurt look on Dean's face. I'm already used to it...
I like your metaphor!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

word! Dean's SAD FACE. it is a powerful thing!!!

see, i put him under a hat.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

True, his sad eyes, even deprived the immediate context, can slay me still.
That hat is a good distraction...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The Sam-bashing out there is unreal.

Un fucking real!! I just saw someone saw that Sam should eat his own gun!! Seriously?! A guy who has not only suffered everything he has AND had the bloody mind to finally stand up to Dean is told to kill himself?! I can't even.

I know we are made to see Dean's hurt - it's all about Dean after all (and I don't mean that sarcastically - it IS about Dean), but what I don't get is why people can't take a step back and actually see that what Dean did was wrong. Even if it saved Sam - the point is what happens when someone doesn't want to be. Why can't people divorce their love for the character (which I do get) and see that what Sam is doing is to HELP Dean break the cycle of bad co-dependence. I dunno. I feel like I'm just not getting it or something.

And I think my thinking is confused so your metaphors make sense to me...

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

"Sam should eat his own gun"

Okay that is just not right.

"HELP Dean break the cycle of bad co-dependence" ... I have to express sorrow at this part. I tried to speak to this in the post I just made. Not saying that the bad co-dependence is not ... bad. But I'm not sure I want the show without it.

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

Not saying that the bad co-dependence is not ... bad. But I'm not sure I want the show without it. I agree, but I think maybe where they're going is to get Sam to admit that he's' in this relationship' just as much as Dean is. I think Sam sees Dean as needy and doesn't like to admit he needs Dean just as much (it may not be healthy but it seems to be true). I think he has every right to be hurt and to call Dean on it. I think he's doing it in a way that is cruel because his anger is much more tightly controlled than Dean's. In the reverse, Dean would've punched Sam and been over it. I'm thinking - hoping - that maybe it's Sam's turn to save Dean and that he'll be faced with he same tough lines that Dean's had to choose to cross (whether that's wisely is another argument and not what I think this is about). I think it's about both of them coming to a deeper understanding of how the other functions and learning some truths about themselves and maybe coming to a place where they communicate about what lines they would cross. Dean said that he thought looking for each other at the beginning of s.8 was an unspoken rule. Well maybe they are finally going to learn to talk about it. *sigh* I am holding onto hope.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I like your way of thinking and interpretation about this. Here's hoping.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun. *HUGS* I've seen you're hurting over this one - as are many.

When I say "bad-codependence" I mean in a way that is destructive to their relationship. Destruct to each other. What Dean did to Sam in saving him this time was bad for Sam and bad for Kevin (and ultimately really bad for Dean). I love their co-dependence more than any one (it's why I watch the show after all), but their relationship can't continue to survive if Dean's need to bring Sam back from the dead (in a situation where Sam is ok with dying) continues unchecked (and I know he's been able to let go before, but yeah…Carver man) I believe they can still be co-dependent (or most certainly love each other beyond reason) without it being so destructive. The reason I am so excited by this development is because having this laid out now means that they can start finding ways that mean they can love each other (which will NEVER stop) in ways that are healthier and will mean it can survive for longer.

Of course, Carver et al probably doesn't see it that way but I see this as a positive step forward. Of course, it's going to get so messy because Dean won't understand what Sam means (and if fans are struggling to then I think the writers have not made this clear enough) so I'm hoping this will be about Dean realising that he can love Sam enough to let him go (one day if he needs to) AND that Sam loves him equally.

More on your other comments, but gotta dash now…
*hugs*

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Sam is doing is to HELP Dean break the cycle of bad co-dependence

I'm not sure how people can be surprised that there is going to be push back on this. I mean, think of how popular Mystery Spot is. These guys are a gothic tragedy, and it's not a bad thing that people enjoy that.

I mean, I haven't cried at this show since Swan Song and still think the most Dean Winchester-ian thing he ever did was go to that cemetery to die with his brother. The angst now doesn't evoke any of those passions in me, because I don't feel the same stakes or emotions.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

I just saw someone saw that Sam should eat his own gun!!

What. The. Hell. (That there is a prime example of the more "binary" members of fandom I mentioned above. There's just no talking to someone like that.) :(

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

ah, guess my fandom corner is a lot calmer, I haven't seen a lot of Sam-hate just yet... but I haven't checked my rss feeder yet. so.

I'm actually giddy after the episode, I mean, honest conversation! Dean might finally have to listen to what Sam has to say, even though it is kind of harsh. There is a chance of Dean character growth!