9.13 Review recs (for those who aren't sick of reading about it!)

[ash48]

I want to share this great review of 9.13 at SpoilerTV: The Problems with Saving Each Other

It's an even handed and well observed look at the final scene (was there actually anything else in that ep? I seem to remember a tank top and a hair net…) and might actually make you believe Carver has a plan (ok, so it might not convince you, but I think there are some valid points). It also confirms my belief that he started this direction (but stumbled) in S8.

I'm still trying to get over the fans' reactions toward Sam. This review helped me understand it a bit better, but to be honest I am still left shaking my head. To not have a shred of sympathy for a character who has been through and suffered so much leaves me speechless. But. I don't want to rehash that. I know everyone has different views on the brothers - but I gotta say I never realised there was such a divide for some. I have no idea how anyone can actually watch the show with such a deep level of hatred for one of the main characters.

I thought this post by bittersweettwit on why Sam's behaviour isn't OOC is interesting too. I've seen some comments (not on my journal) that suggest that Sam must still be possessed, or have Lucifer still inside him to say something like that. O_o This is a good argument for why he is actually in character.

And fangasm has written an interesting and well constructed review that also looks at why fans have reacted so passionately about it - namely that we don't like change. I agree with much of it, but some I'm still pondering. I get that one of the reasons we love the show is because of the brothers unhealthy, messy, codependent relationship and we don't like the idea of that changing, but I for one would like to see them working toward a less destructive relationship full of positive love rather than the cycle of sacrifice and resurrections. The fact that they are addressing this now, could mean we are heading toward change. Personally, I think we can have a show about brothers who have a healthy(-er) relationship and it still be engaging and capture our hearts like it's done for years (or, you know…not ;D)

And if you're still feeling down or worried (or pissed) you've just gotta see the promo for 9.14. I'm pretty easy to please so just seeing the boys on the screen together makes me pretty damn happy (even when they are working through a rift). Shame we have to wait until the 25th to see it!

Comments

[casey28.livejournal.com]

It sucks when either of the brothers are bashed.

I do feel sympathy for Sam, but I don't like that he wishes he had died, and I don't agree with what he's said to Dean about it.

I get that one of the reasons we love the show is because of the brothers unhealthy, messy, codependent relationship and we don't like the idea of that changing, but I for one would like to see them working toward a less destructive relationship full of positive love rather than the cycle of sacrifice and resurrections.

One of the big reasons why I love the show is the lengths they'll go for each other. With that gone, it means that they can live without each other, and that they're not the most important thing in each other's lives. That's not what I want to see happen.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It DOES suck when the brothers are bashed. :(

but I don't like that he wishes he had died, and I don't agree with what he's said to Dean about it.

I know we've chatted about this quite a bit and there's probably not much each of us can say at this point to persuade the other of our povs (if that makes sense!) I'll only say that I don't think Sam wishes he had died (in fact he said yes because he wanted to live) he just didn't want Dean to do what he did. And therefore he needed to tell Dean that. If he continues to let Dean make decisions for him then the continued lack of control of his so-called destiny is always going to be an issue for Sam. The only way we'll ever see a healthy Sam is when he feels Dean trusts him enough to make his own decisions.

With that gone, it means that they can live without each other, and that they're not the most important thing in each other's lives.

This is something I am hoping the show is attempting to prove wrong. That they CAN still be the most important people in each other's lives and still have power over their own lives. With S10 just being confirmed we have a whole new season for them to show that they can still work together, be the best brothers the world has ever seen, be prepared to die for each other and still be everything we've seen from them - but that all their insecurities - Dean's belief that Sam doesn't love him and Sam believe that Dean doesn't trust him - can be resolved. I think we're in for some torrid times ahead, but I hope we get to see everything we've come to love about this show. I am confident we will.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I'll only say that I don't think Sam wishes he had died (in fact he said yes because he wanted to live) he just didn't want Dean to do what he did.

Yes, at that moment he did want to live, once Dean told him that there was a option. But he didn't know what he was agreeing to, and if he did, he would've said no. Later on, he said "I was ready to die, Dean.", "So what, I was willing to die." and "I was ready to die, I was ready. I should have died." He does wish he had died.

If he continues to let Dean make decisions for him then the continued lack of control of his so-called destiny is always going to be an issue for Sam. The only way we'll ever see a healthy Sam is when he feels Dean trusts him enough to make his own decisions.

I know you feel strongly about this, and I understand what you're saying.. about Sam making his own decisions about important issues like this. In this case though, it means that Sam would have died, and that's why I'm so against it. He told Dean that if it was the same circumstances, he would've let Dean die. That's what he would've wanted for himself, too. There wouldn't be an option for a "healthy" Sam, because Sam would be dead. If I were to support Sam's right to choose in 9.01, then I'd have to accept his decision to die (and I don't).

That's the hard thing, I have no idea where they're going with this. I mean, from the writer's tweets, I can see that there'll be some sort of fix... it's broken down so they can build it up again, but that can mean anything... Sam is already so terribly OOC, they need to do something to bring back the Sammy who shows his brother how much he loves him.

I think we're in for some torrid times ahead, but I hope we get to see everything we've come to love about this show. I am confident we will.

I hope you're right!

xoxo

[ash48.livejournal.com]

If I were to support Sam's right to choose in 9.01, then I'd have to accept his decision to die (and I don't).

Fair enough but I don't think he would have chosen to die, but we'll never know as this was never on the cards. But yeah, choice wins out for me on this issue.

Sam is already so terribly OOC, they need to do something to bring back the Sammy who shows his brother how much he loves him.

Isn't it weird. I see him more in character than I've done for a while. Beginning of S8 was the most OOC he's been (mostly because we never got his POV). But for him to finally speak out about his life always being taken control of is growth I think, rather than out of character.

I just hope they don't take that away from him. I'm still confused how anyone can think he doesn't love Dean. Standing up for yourself shouldn't mean you don't love someone. I just hope the writers can make that clearer for those who don't see it.

I haven't been able to state my case very clearly (not being as articulate as some).

This article says it better than me and actually sees it from both characters pov's. This is what I hope the show was doing (and the fact that this reviewer saw it means there's something there):

http://www.examiner.com/article/commentary-supernatural-episode-the-purge-was-an-exercise-hard-truths

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Fair enough but I don't think he would have chosen to die, but we'll never know as this was never on the cards.

I'm curious why you think he wouldn't have chosen to die. Like Dean said, there's no way that Sam would've agreed to the possession. Sam had no idea that Dean had this in mind, when he said "yes". All he knew was that Dean said he could "fix this". He gave Sam a glimmer of hope, but that doesn't mean that Sam would have agreed to it. Sam has made it very clear that he's 100 percent against what happened, and not just because Kevin was killed. Same circumstances, he would've let Dean die, so there's no way he would've said yes to Gadreel. Sam's attitude isn't something "new", based on on the bad fallout from the possession... it meshes with his decision to accept Dean's death at the end of season 7.

But yeah, choice wins out for me on this issue.

So, if Sam chose to die, you'd accept it? Accept that he'd be gone for good, no deals to bring him back?

But for him to finally speak out about his life always being taken control of is growth I think, rather than out of character.

In this case, "taking control" saved his life. I get that saying "Dean, it's my life, my decision", sounds like a healthy attitude, but it's Sam fighting for the right to die. Fighting for the right to walk away from "them", from being brothers, being family. It's walking away from the promises they made in that church. Leaving Dean to face the angel and demon stuff on his own. That's why I don't see it as progress.

I'm still confused how anyone can think he doesn't love Dean. Standing up for yourself shouldn't mean you don't love someone.

I'm not saying that he doesn't love Dean, but in "standing up for himself", he's trashing everything meaningful between them. He's saying that Dean sees himself as a hero and savior, but he does more bad than good, and so what the upside of Sam being alive? As if Dean caring about saving his brother's life doesn't matter. And then when Dean answers and says "you and me, fighting the good fight together", Sam totally rejects that, says that Dean only did it for himself, not for their brotherhood, not for them as a team, not out of love. Just cause Dean couldn't be alone. Which I totally believe isn't true. If that were the case, then we can throw away everything that was said in the church scene, and it was all a lie, which it's not. He's saying it's just business between them, that they're working together, but not as brothers. So, as much as I love Sam, I don't like his attitude.

Interesting article...

I haven't been able to state my case very clearly (not being as articulate as some).</i OMG, I feel that way all the time, that I wish I was more articulate.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling we are going around in circles with this and might just have to settle on agreeing that we see things differently...;)

But to answer those questions (as best I can *g*)

I'm curious why you think he wouldn't have chosen to die

Two reasons. 1 - he's Sam and he can't die because he's in the show and 2 - he stopped the trials on Dean's say so, so I totally believe that if Dean wanted to he could have persuaded Sam to agree to the possession. And if he didn't then Sam had made peace with death, so yes if Sam wanted to die he should have been allowed to.

After all "there'll be peace when you are done.." If Sam had truly made peace then that's his choice. That's not to say I WANT this. If Sam wasn't in the show I wouldn't watch it. Sam is fighting for is right to choose- not necessarily to die - just to be given the choice if it came down to it. After every thing Sam has been through when the time comes for him to die he should be allowed to - whether Dean wants it or not (definitely have to settle on see this differently).

And then when Dean answers and says "you and me, fighting the good fight together", Sam totally rejects that, says that Dean only did it for himself,

I totally accept that this was harsh of Sam. And he's not completely right in this (though personally I agree that Dean does do a lot of it for himself as much as for Sam) - but he's mad with Dean so he's said that because Dean refuses to understand him. People say hurtful things when they are hurt themselves. Sam is deeply hurt by Dean's betrayal so him saying things more harshly then he needed to has not only caused all this drama but leaves open something for Sam to possible prove (to Dean and to fans it looks like).

It's a two way process here. It's not all on Sam or all on Dean. They have both made mistakes, both said and done hurtful things. Dean is seen as the shiny hero who can do what ever he likes to Sam because he's his brother and family comes first. I get that (i just have problems with it - but only the same problems that the show itself is beginning to explore) I believe Sam has been made to say this so at some stage (I hope!) Sam will do something that will prove to Dean (and fans) that he does believe in them fighting the good fight together. Just, at the moment, he's so pissed that I'm surprised he's even agreed to keep on fighting at all. But he has, and I think this is another indication that he knows why Dean did what he did. He jsut wants Dean to see his side of the situation. To say - "I get it Sam. You've been hurt by what I did. I should have given you the choice, but I couldn't let you die. You're right, I did it for myself as much as I did it for you. If I know what I know now, I wouldn't do it again. I would do everything I could to save you - don't ask me not to, but I won't make any more deals that end up with you being so hurt". Sam just wants some acknowledgment that he has a right to be pissed about this. And I know that Dean also wants Sam to acknowledge that his life is valuable. It's a two way thing as I said.

*phew* I don't think I can discuss this much more. It's kinda doing my head in. ;D I think the next few episodes (or maybe the next 5) will see which direction they are planning to take with this. I just know that I will be supporting Sam and Dean equally.
xx

[casey28.livejournal.com]

might just have to settle on agreeing that we see things differently...;)

I respect you're opinion, and of course it's fine if we see things differently. ;)

Two reasons. 1 - he's Sam and he can't die because he's in the show

Which is why the writers didn't go down that path ;) Took Sam's choice away, so it wouldn't happen.

So, you feel Sam has the right to chose to die, even though it's not what you want, personally. And that he should be allowed to die, whether Dean wants it, or not. I can't separate the two out... Sam's decision to die means he'd be off the show. Of course, it wouldn't happen, but that's the reality of it, if Sam's choice to die played out.

I'm glad that you agree it was harsh of Sam to say that. And yes, people say hurtful things when they feel hurt, but IMHO Sam has taken it way too far.

Sam just wants some acknowledgment that he has a right to be pissed about this. And I know that Dean also wants Sam to acknowledge that his life is valuable.

I think Dean knows that Sam has a right to be pissed, but Sam's way of being pissed is to reject Dean. Sam has made up his mind about the situation, and he doesn't let anything "in". Like, he told Cas at the end of 9.11 that Cas was "right about everything", but then he turns around and acts like he didn't get any of what Cas said to him. And yes, Sam needs to acknowledge that his life is valuable.

I just know that I will be supporting Sam and Dean equally.

I always support both brothers, even when I don't agree with stuff that they say.

xoxo