9.13 Review recs (for those who aren't sick of reading about it!)

[ash48]

I want to share this great review of 9.13 at SpoilerTV: The Problems with Saving Each Other

It's an even handed and well observed look at the final scene (was there actually anything else in that ep? I seem to remember a tank top and a hair net…) and might actually make you believe Carver has a plan (ok, so it might not convince you, but I think there are some valid points). It also confirms my belief that he started this direction (but stumbled) in S8.

I'm still trying to get over the fans' reactions toward Sam. This review helped me understand it a bit better, but to be honest I am still left shaking my head. To not have a shred of sympathy for a character who has been through and suffered so much leaves me speechless. But. I don't want to rehash that. I know everyone has different views on the brothers - but I gotta say I never realised there was such a divide for some. I have no idea how anyone can actually watch the show with such a deep level of hatred for one of the main characters.

I thought this post by bittersweettwit on why Sam's behaviour isn't OOC is interesting too. I've seen some comments (not on my journal) that suggest that Sam must still be possessed, or have Lucifer still inside him to say something like that. O_o This is a good argument for why he is actually in character.

And fangasm has written an interesting and well constructed review that also looks at why fans have reacted so passionately about it - namely that we don't like change. I agree with much of it, but some I'm still pondering. I get that one of the reasons we love the show is because of the brothers unhealthy, messy, codependent relationship and we don't like the idea of that changing, but I for one would like to see them working toward a less destructive relationship full of positive love rather than the cycle of sacrifice and resurrections. The fact that they are addressing this now, could mean we are heading toward change. Personally, I think we can have a show about brothers who have a healthy(-er) relationship and it still be engaging and capture our hearts like it's done for years (or, you know…not ;D)

And if you're still feeling down or worried (or pissed) you've just gotta see the promo for 9.14. I'm pretty easy to please so just seeing the boys on the screen together makes me pretty damn happy (even when they are working through a rift). Shame we have to wait until the 25th to see it!

Comments

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I have no idea how anyone can actually watch the show with such a deep level of hatred for one of the main characters.

Fandom has confused, angered and upset me so much I've decided to just watch show and ignore fandom for some considerable time.

I'm just here now because I need to tell you I've always admired your support for show and all sections of fandom and I'm proud to have you on my flist, still loving both brothers, both show and fandom and trying to see all sides.

Thanks for the link to the promo, hadn't realised show was on short hiatus.

**hugs you**

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*huuuuugs*

The amount of head shaking I've done over fandom this week has given me a headache! But I've mostly just thought "stuff you, I'm moving on* (except the one time that I didn't and decided to defriend someone - which I've NEVER done before - but I was so saddened by the level of aggression that I felt compelled).

And the promo looks like fun! (which I know can be deceiving :D), but after ALL the talk from the last ep it felt like the show would never be the same again. I felt like we'd never see them share the same space again. Instead we see that the show goes on and it might not be for another few eps that the elephant in the room is mentioned again. In the meantime….BOOOYYYSS! \o/

*smish* (Glad oyu popped by. After your last post I though you might be avoiding all things fandom…)
xx

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

It's been interesting to me that a lot of the reaction from people who are a little less engaged has been very different from what we see coming out of the heart of the fandom. Like, this review from someone on my flist for whom Spn is just one among many shows she follows and reviews, with a couple of comments from people in a similar state of relative detachment (well, and me: if I'm anywhere close to detachment it's because of a not very peaceable and hopefully temporary "get me the fuck out of here" thing):

http://alethialia.livejournal.com/647767.html

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh thank you for that link! that is great.

With all the angst I missed this:

First off, just the idea that Sam checks in before he goes to bed is kind of adorable

It IS adorable. In fact, there was a lot to adore in this ep (like Sam telling Dean he has donut dust on his mouth <33).

I love reading the less, er, detached reviews. It actually gives you a chance to see how the episode (or scenes) is probably meant to be received. We view it with huge amounts of emotion but the casual viewer can say "oh I liked that they talked about that". AND THAT BE IT! (lucky them…)

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

By far the best and most accurate review of this episode.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's very cool isn't it!?!

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I think it's natural for us to try and sympathize with the character that we feel the most attached to because that's usually the character we think we understand the best. That, of course, can lead to rather heated emotions (I still remember the fandom war between the Deangirls and the Casgirls after Cas beat Dean up in S5).

However, I think you need to be able to see the faults in even your most favorite character, or else you aren't really understanding them very well at all. Hating the ~opposite side because events shine a light on those faults is where people take a wrong turn into over-investment.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

yes yes yes!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* vigorously.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the recs, I'll definitely have a look at them.
These days I try very very hard not to let unfair Sam-bashing ruin my love for Dean, because, you know, the UNFAIR Sam-bashing is usually juxtaposed with this innocent(yes, and very innocent, "Sam how can you say that to your brother when he's sacrificed so much for you?! You have no heart!" kind of innocent), hurting image of Dean. I'm speaking from a gross experience which gave me a painful, sleepless night.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Sorry to hear it caused a sleepless night. I know the feeling though - I think people have been saying stuff without any consideration for who might read it and how they may react. :(

[bittersweettwit.livejournal.com]

Aw thanks for the rec Ash *hug*

Interestingly enough I posted a link to it over on Twitter and Eric Charmelo (the writer of the episode favourited it). Of course it's most likely a case of him just seeing the title and being glad to see praise (especially since a certain hateful group of fans have been bashing his account non-stop) than a case of him actually reading it but it was still nice to see :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Pleasure hun. So are you saying he retweeted it? And I'm sad to hear he's been bashed :(( what a horrible representation of fandom. And also, those writers would have had little input into that final scene. That would have been on the table since the beginning of S9. I feel it's always been heading toward that confrontation - they are just the unfortunate ones who had to write it.

[big-heart-june.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I wish I could watch in the detached way I watch my other shows too, it would mean a LOT less heartache. Thanks for the recs, and thank you also for always being so open-minded and non-judgemental and for your LOVE of show and both brothers always. It means so much ♥ I rarely comment here because I often feel overwhelmed and there are other people here that express themselves way better than I could ever do but I always read and love your thougtful insightful and fun reviews.

I have no idea how anyone can actually watch the show with such a deep level of hatred for one of the main characters.

This. I'll never understand it. it keeps me up at night.

Thanks again, bb, I'm very easy to please too! EXCITED for the next ep!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Thanks hun! Man, I wish I could detach. I was watching Teen Wolf the other night and thinking.."this is how I'd like to watch SPN" - enjoying it, but being able to let it go once I've watched it (though, I can't deny there's a certain amount of enjoyment is chatting about it when the chat is civil. ;)

Can't wait for next ep!!!

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

While I'm definitely not sick of reading thoughtful, analytical posts, as I want to understand both sides, I'm done with the vicious bashing (of Sam and Dean) that's been going on in public forums. IDK, maybe because I tend to stick with my smallish circle of bi-bros, Dean-friendly Samgirls and Sam-friendly Deangirls, I'm unaccustomed to behavior as venomous and hurtful as that which unfolded after 9.13.

I never realised there was such a divide for some. I have no idea how anyone can actually watch the show with such a deep level of hatred for one of the main characters.

Dear God, THIS. SPN is a show about two brothers. How do people like that even WATCH? Me, I'm never giving up on Show and my boys, but am definitely taking three giant steps back from fandom-in-general. (But not you, bb, never you.)

just seeing the boys on the screen together makes me pretty damn happy (even when they are working through a rift)

This times a million⁹⁹. Thanks again for all the links! ♥♥♥

*edited for html-fail :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It puzzles me with a show like this because if you actually hate one of the brothers it must make it very difficult to watch. It's not like when you watch an ensemble show and a character you might not like is on every now and then - the brothers are pretty much on all the time. *Head scratch*. I can't imagine disliking either of them. Even though are pretty screwed up THEY SURE ARE PRETTY they are still amazing characters.

xx

[stormcloude]

I'm pretty unhappy that Carver is changing their love which saved the world during the Kripke years into something bad and destructive that needs to be "matured." He can just fuck right off.

[bittersweettwit.livejournal.com]

Just to point out that it was also their love that made the world need to be saved in the first place in the Kripke years ;)

[kazluvsbooks.livejournal.com]

I LOVE that you are still so much for the show as a whole..and that i am not alone in still feeling the joy of each new episode.

In my mind you can't love Dean without Sam and vice versa..that IS the show after all..

(((ash))

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yep!! All the love! After all the discussion I felt that we'd never see these two talk to each other again. It was as thought it was ALL OVER! And then I see the promo and it;s like…OH YAY! They are still ok. They are still together and are actually talking to each other! :DD

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Hey Ash - posted this this morning. You might appreciate it. :)

http://growyourwings.livejournal.com/874438.html

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I saw that this morning just because I had to leave for work and it filled me with GLEE!! And YES YES was all I could think. :When they build this relationship back up it will indeed be even stronger. <3333

thanks bb!

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

Helloooooo :)
Read the first article you linked, and really liked this comment from:
"percysowner lala2

Except we've been here in season three with Doc Benton the Zombie Frankenstein. Sam found out about his immortality formula and begged Dean to use it to avoid Hell. Dean said no it was a line he wouldn't cross and Sam honored that. He didn't pull pages out of Doc Benton's journal and make up the formula when Dean wasn't looking. He didn't slip the formula into Dean's coffee on the sly. He didn't start taking notes on what kind of organ donor they would need when Dean's body began to fall apart. Sam threw the journal into the grave with Doc Benton and did what Dean wanted. Sam has ALREADY PASSED the "I will treat my brother like a human being who gets to make decisions about his life" test. So Sam has been in a very similar situation and made his peace with doing what Dean wants."

Don't know the guy, but agree with this. I missed all the apparent Sam hate, but I reckon he's reacting pretty truthfully, to life (as in, rl) their life, and his character.

...off to read some more :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey,

I'd be pretty sure it's the percysowner who has been making some wonderfully thoughtful comments my reaction post. And what she says here is spot on (and I hadn't remembered that, so that's very cool and a perfect reminder about what's at the heart of Sam's character. He loves and adores his brother, but respects him enough to follow his wishes. I do think that Dean still needs to understand this. That he can love and adore his brother and still allow him the right to make his own decisions about his life).

And you're lucky to have missed all the hate. It makes for a very unhappy place.

*hugs* Hope you are well. <3

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Damned. I didn't realize there is a mini hiatus and was looking forward to watching the new ep this morning. *sulky face* I watched the promo instead. Now it's even worse to wait until the 25. LOL ;D

You know I'm even tempered about the show and love it as a whole. So, yay for people who get the growing of the show (which goes along with the aging of the characters as well as the actors!!) and are able to embrace some change. Seeing Sam and Dean one day with their old age walking frames still acting like they did as boys feels just wrong to me. I mean I'm all for fans looking at things from different angles and that but this bashing and hating on characters makes me think some people need an outlet for issues that are not nescessarily rooted in the show. But, yeah.. each to their own.
Thanks for still being here with your squee and love for the show. It's good to know it's always safe to read your thoughts, even when you get upset about something.
And since I'm in a hugging mood, here it comes!! ((squiiiiidge)) :D

♥♥♥

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah BOO hiatus (though actually I'm kinda relieved because I had a show tonight which meant I might not have been able to watch it. Thinking of myself here of course :D

Seeing Sam and Dean one day with their old age walking frames still acting like they did as boys feels just wrong to me.

See, I think this too. It wouldn't make sense if they were exactly they same boys we met 9 years ago. I know we'd like to see them remain the same because that's who we fell in love with, but they have to grow and change and I think the characters we met back they NEED to grow and change. Doesn't mean we can't still love them.

makes me think some people need an outlet for issues that are not nescessarily rooted in the show.

Yeah. It makes one wonder. With some of the aggressive language I've seen you gotta think there's more going on that just a reaction to TV characters (that said, I do understand the passion with which people watch this).

and *HUUUUGGGSSSS* ya back! <33

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the links, Ash! And for your generally lovely, positive attitude - it is helping me feel more connected to spn fandom, when I had started to withdraw.

I'm actually quite interested in where the show is going right now, though I don't mind the hiatus - it's giving me time to process a bit, and hopefully get some of my own meta out there before the next episode airs :)

(I did get a little annoyed with the Fangasm review when they started talking about how Sam is going through delayed adolescence and is acting out against Dean - that seems like a very dismissive view to me. But some of their other points, about how deeply we feel about fictional characters, were quite good.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey,

Thanks hun. I still think there's a lot to be positive about (and I hope they don't prove me wrong!)

And yes about that part of the review. I've pretty much avoided reviews unless I know there's an even take - because I'm finding that in an attempt to be sympathetic to Sam it's more "poor boy, doesn't know what he's saying" (which couldn't be further from the truth) instead of "that needed to be said". I do worry that actually most people think that Sam is the one out of step here - that he has something to "learn" (or apologise for) rather than Dean. I know they both have journey's to take but it saddens me to think that the feeling is that it is Sam with the most work to do. I know I'm in the minority when I say Sam showed a level of maturity in being so open with his thoughts. (I just hope the show is actually taking that stand and not the other. I think I'm going to have to brace myself for Sam somehow having to learn a lesson I think. But we'll see! I shall remain hopeful until then! *g*)

[casey28.livejournal.com]

It sucks when either of the brothers are bashed.

I do feel sympathy for Sam, but I don't like that he wishes he had died, and I don't agree with what he's said to Dean about it.

I get that one of the reasons we love the show is because of the brothers unhealthy, messy, codependent relationship and we don't like the idea of that changing, but I for one would like to see them working toward a less destructive relationship full of positive love rather than the cycle of sacrifice and resurrections.

One of the big reasons why I love the show is the lengths they'll go for each other. With that gone, it means that they can live without each other, and that they're not the most important thing in each other's lives. That's not what I want to see happen.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It DOES suck when the brothers are bashed. :(

but I don't like that he wishes he had died, and I don't agree with what he's said to Dean about it.

I know we've chatted about this quite a bit and there's probably not much each of us can say at this point to persuade the other of our povs (if that makes sense!) I'll only say that I don't think Sam wishes he had died (in fact he said yes because he wanted to live) he just didn't want Dean to do what he did. And therefore he needed to tell Dean that. If he continues to let Dean make decisions for him then the continued lack of control of his so-called destiny is always going to be an issue for Sam. The only way we'll ever see a healthy Sam is when he feels Dean trusts him enough to make his own decisions.

With that gone, it means that they can live without each other, and that they're not the most important thing in each other's lives.

This is something I am hoping the show is attempting to prove wrong. That they CAN still be the most important people in each other's lives and still have power over their own lives. With S10 just being confirmed we have a whole new season for them to show that they can still work together, be the best brothers the world has ever seen, be prepared to die for each other and still be everything we've seen from them - but that all their insecurities - Dean's belief that Sam doesn't love him and Sam believe that Dean doesn't trust him - can be resolved. I think we're in for some torrid times ahead, but I hope we get to see everything we've come to love about this show. I am confident we will.

[crystalsc.livejournal.com]

I've always been extremely selective of what I read online regarding fandoms. More so with SPN than any other fandom I think because it's always had so many, er, interpretations that I just didn't understand. And after discovering how vicious Spuffy Vs Bangel shippers in the Buffy universe can get, I was like, "Nah, I just want fun." Getting into arguments with other people isn't my idea of enjoying a fandom. And, when someone bashes a character I love, frankly, it hurts my feelings. I love my favorite characters too much. LOL

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* It can be pretty fraught. I love chatting about the show but I try not to engage in shipping wars (kinda pointless when most ships don't actually even exist in the show) and character bashing (again, no point when those characters are in a show you love). SPN is problematic mostly because we feel so damn passionately about the characters. They've just announced S10 so we have end MORE angst ahead. How will we survive!?!

xxx

[colls]

I've been taking my time getting to the SPN episodes lately - mostly to avoid some of the heated backlash and it's the perfect excuse when people ask my why I'm not on tumblr these days (LOL)

I was SO WORRIED about what fandom would say about Sam that I still haven't ventured anywhere. I figured I'd come to your journal first (It's always felt like a "safe" sane place).
I read through your other 9.13 post and OMG over 250 comments? (I did not read through all those). Wow. People have opinions on this episode, huh?

I came away from the episode with an overwhelming sense that Sam was trying to tell Dean "I love you enough to let you go if the situation had been reversed." I understand that fans watch the show from all sorts of angles but am pretty baffled that other interpretations could be so prevalent.

As always, thanks for the great meta and links to other posts.

My episode summary:
Yoga. Instructor.
- "Nice shorts."
- "Nice hair net."
Sam obviously wins. HOW IS THAT NOT CLEAR?
;p

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi hun!

Sorry for the late reply.

Fandom was pretty scary there for a bit, that's for sure. Sam being angry at Dean certainly stirred up some interesting (and horrible) reactions. I kinda went into defensive mode because poor Sam was really copping it.

Hee...and yes. The 9.13 post did seem to stir up a bit of discussion. I was pleased that much of it was very respectful. I think people just had to make some sense of what was happening - discussing it seemed to be the way to do that.

And I TOTALLY read that as "I love you enough to let you go if the situation had been reversed". I'm just can't figure out how not many others did (but I've since learned that there are some people that Sam just can't do anything right - so there's not much one can do about that).

NICE SHORTS!! Winner! :D