Jensen interview

[ash48]

Note: There are spoilers in the interview. Under the cut are spoilers for the Mark's affect on Dean only - and minor speculation.

Jensen's kindly given an interview to The Winchester Brothers on Winchester Radio recently (I suggest you avoid the comments in the above link if you want to avoid some nastiness. I accidentally saw some and decided to respond. I KNOW I shouldn't have done but dammit I was steaming). I actually read a transcript of the interview (and I've just seen that stir_of_echoes has created one also <3) rather than listen to it. I started to listen but found it a little…er…messy (which might have been because of nerves maybe).



I think missyjack said it best when she called Jensen the ultimate Dean!girl. :) And so he should be. Listening to him talk about Dean is wonderful and insightful. I love how supportive he is of the character and it has given me some insights to how he goes about playing him. I particularly love how he includes his experiences in Purgatory as something that drives Dean. We never see that (unfortunately!), but it's wonderful that Jensen's using it for inspiration.

It's also interesting to hear his take on Sam. Some of it I found hard to accept and I didn't agree with quite a bit of it, but I did find it interesting. I know that Jensen probably doesn't spent a lot of time analysing Sam's character (if at all), so it's not surprising that his comments are based on Dean's experience of Sam and not how he sees Sam fitting into the overall picture. Which makes sense because as an actor you are totally focused on your own character (I'm hoping Jared will do a similar interview because I'd love to hear his insights into Sam).

I wasn't totally thrilled by the pitch of some of the questions (in fact, it was a little disappointing that the interviewers weren't more objective and even handed with the questions) but there were some great questions that allowed Jensen to really talk about his character.

Some interesting comments he made:

Obviously, Dean is willing to go all-in and keep the family together, and keep the brothers moving down the road and it seems that more and more, Sam is willing to cash out and he’s not willing to put his life on the line the way that Dean is.

Not going to deny that this comment really took me aback. I have no idea what "cash out" means but if this is the Sam we are going to be seeing in the future it might well be the final straw for me. I'm not quite sure what Jensen's take on 8.23 was but Sam was completely ready to put his life on the line for the greater good. And er….end S5? Though I will accept that Jensen might be channeling Dean and thinks that Sam won't lay his life on the line for Dean. Which is crazy of course, but it's something Dean would absolutely be feeling (though if Show decides that actually Sam WON'T lay his life on the line for Dean then it's not the show I originally started watching so it'll be all over red rover for me).


That’s a tough pill for Dean to swallow, and I think the only way he’s dealing with it is by not dealing with it.

That's a really interesting observation and I think that's definitely true. I love that he mentioned this because I've wondered if Dean not acknowledging what Sam has suffered is part of him just not wanting to deal. We've seen Dean shut down more and more I think.


The mark of Cain has given him a simplicity in his thoughts that’s allowing him to ignore the complexity of their relationship right now and focus on the prize, which is Abbadon at this point

Fair call..but…um….Abbadon is the prize? I thought Gadreel was on the top of Dean's list? Not sure exactly how Addadon became top priority. Maybe it's because it's what Crowley wants? I'm trying to remember why Addadon is such a thorn in Dean's side - considering she hasn't really featured much this season (or last for that matter). Curious.


So, I think the line between black and white is becoming almost dangerously clear, the grey areas are becoming less and less as far as Dean is concerned.

Awesome! The Mark is going to be really interesting for Dean. Seeing a cold (almost soulless) Dean is going to give Jensen some great stuff to work with and will be great to watch.


Yeah, for a long time there were a lot of different storylines going on, mostly revolving around Sam, and what the story was doing to Sam although a lot of it, it could be said was being seen through Dean’s perspective, the story was always, kind of about Sam and what was going on internally with him

Pretty much what we all know and have said for a while. Though not sure how "what was going on internally with him" means as we don't get a lot on what's going on with him internally. I mean, we get the angst but we don't get to see the result of all the crap that happens to him. But I get it - from Dean's perspective stuff is ALWAYS happening to Sam (and my god it really is!) and I kinda get the sense that Jensen is happy for the "stuff" is now going to be happening to him.

Which I'm pretty darn excited by too. He also talks about the roles reversing - which makes me wonder if we'll get to watch Dean's story through Sam's eyes now? I think that would be pretty cool if handled right.


Yeah, Sam’s a real selfish asshole is what it boils down to (laughs)

It is true, Sam seems to be a little preoccupied and maybe it’s a little brother thing. Maybe he’s

“You’re my big brother you can figure it out yourself.”

But that’s a contrast to the way Dean thinks as in, “I’m the big brother and I have to protect my little brother from harm.” That’s kind of been his creed for as long as he can remember so I think that they both kind of come at it from different angles. Sam is more willing to allow for things to happen as they happen and it’s a Sam-centric world in his mind, and I think it always has been and I think it’s been a Sam-centric show for a long time

Yeah. I probably should just let this go. I know Jensen said some of this in jest but if even Jensen thinks Sam's an asshole what the hell hope do any of us have that think he's not. *sigh* And Sam is Sam-centric? Yeah, saving the world was all about Sam. Trying to trade himself for Dean in hell was clearly all about Sam. Sam continuing to hunt, save people, listen and help people is only because Sam thinks about himself. Clearly. (I know I am coming across as some sort of bitter Sam!girl, but I seriously must be watching a different show if, after everything, Sam is still considered selfish). I am aware that Jensen is talking about the characters and it makes sense that that is what Dean would be thinking - but even then Dean KNOWS Sam is not selfish - he's seen first hand the things Sam has been willing to do for others. I suppose it's fair that Jensen might think that though - considering a lot of fandom thinks the same.

What does come across clearly is Jensen wanting something more for his character. And I don't blame him. When we look back and think about everything that has happened to Sam it's pretty epic. Jared has been able to play all sorts of characters - many different versions of Sam. Jensen hasn't really had that opportunity, so I think Jensen has a right to be feeling pretty over Jared getting all the cool stuff. Jensen plays "dark" very well (end!verse Dean is still one of my fav Deans) and I think the Mark is going to give him some great material to work with. Oooh, we still might get to see 2014!Dean emerge. That would be wicked if they somehow gave us that future version of Dean - what a cool tie in.


Whether he protects him because of the fear of loneliness, whatever the reason is, I don’t think Dean sits in his bed and psychoanalyses himself all that much.

Definitely. And interestingly it's coming across exactly like that. WE do! But Dean doesn't. Even non-Mark Dean wouldn't contemplate his motivations too much. He just is.


Winchester Radio: To that end, are there any decisions that Dean has made over the years that you could revisit and possibly alter in some way?

What would be the issue if you were to do so?

Jensen: Not invite Gadreel into Sam. That would be number one on the list.

*phew* I'm glad we're on the same page about that. And he, like me, understands that what Dean did is all part of the story telling. This isn't Jensen saying he didn't what that for Dean, but rather knowing that Dean would want do-over on that one decision.


I have to say this interview hasn't given me a lot of hope for the storyline exploring Sam being possessed against his will (not that Jensen would know or possibly worry about). It's just not on their radar. I probably have to accept that if I want to continue to enjoy the season (and series actually). I just have to accept that, much like last season, the reasons for why Sam is behaving in a certain way is not an issue - just that what he's doing is enough to create a reaction from Dean. And now that the story is moving to the Mark (and Dean changing because of it), there will be even less focus on Dean feeling/learning/growing from anything he's done. In fact, Sam's attitude is likely to be driving him toward that darkness. Sam will just have to move on (*fandom cheers*) and forget that the first part of the season even happened for him. I could be wrong and they may well integrate Sam's past experiences into his story arc, but I can't see it. Though I suspect we'll be watching Sam fight for his brother - which will be cool too. At this point it's the only thing I can imagine happening that will calm down all the hate.

It's so wonderful that Jensen gave up his time to give this interview. It's a shame that it will (already has) created even more of the Sam v Dean crap. I ranted on tumblr about all that so I won't repeat it here. Needless to say I am totally over it and I think I might be joining fellow fans and remaining off fandom sites until the storyline allows people to actually behave civilly.

That said, I am more than happy to discuss the interview as long there's no nastiness - for either Sam, Dean or Jensen.

Comments

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Part II:

Secondly: I'd hate to think that Dean only stopped the trials in the end because he felt like he should have done them. Is that what others think? I'd say the relationship is even more messed up than I thought if that's the case.

What I said at that point was If it were a completely different show, with a different relationship between the boys, it would be easy to see Dean convincing Sam not to finish the Trials as a malign move on his part.

What I meant there was that it's not a completely different show, it's SPN, so I don't see it that way. That's NOT Dean's relationship to Sam.

I'm not sure why Dean stopped Sam exactly -- I would have preferred him to be all brave and forbearing and tragic and for Sam to have been stopped inevitably - as he had to be if we wanted the show to continue -- by a different source. But it sure looks at this point that the writers are rehearsing "the Dean can't live without Sam narrative," which is not my favorite storyline. Personally, I wish the story were more complicated and nuanced on this point, but it doesn't look that way so far.

As for the third point, I'm talking about psychological nuances and tensions and button pushing in family relationships. Family relationships always have all kinds of strains and underlying subtle tensions, with old issues resurfacing. Especially sibling relationships where everyone "plays their role".

So I'm puzzled that you think Dean wanting his own narrative in his life (even if this is something he keeps to himself and rarely allows out for air) -- and not just being the servitor of his brother -- makes him seem like a petulant child. I think it is the opposite. I know I've recently read tons and tons of animus on your blog directed towards Dean because of his extreme methods in saving Sam. Don't you think he would be less glommed onto needing Sam if he had his own narrative for once -- and not just the role of "save Sam"? I sure do. I think it would have given him his own space and a lot more self worth. It's like a reprise of the issues in the dreamscape of Dream A Little Dream of Me when finally Dean comes face to face with the self he has repressed.

Instead, he is going to get his own narrative this year, but he'll be going dark side, instead of light side. I imagine that will subtract from his self worth going forward, which does not thrill me, as I think that has been dwelt on to death. And seems overwrought at this point.

Anyway, Sam sure wants his space -- that's why he is pushing Dean away, making their relationship professional, not fraternal. He seems to think if Dean learns to treat him as a mere professional than he won't override his boundaries so easily and recklessly. And that he needs actual retraining this way, as in retraining his brain pathways. It's very method. I think Sam is probably right about that. And one can see that it is also hard for Sam, even though at times he just frames everything in the most hurtful way for Dean, as siblings do when they are pushing buttons. And Sam knows how to push Dean's buttons par excellence.

This reframing of the sibling relationship also looks to be a metaphor for what the show is doing, putting the relationship on a new track.

As for my final point, I guess this whole conversation has been filtered through the lens of Sam hate because of what is going on in Tumblir and elsewhere. The thing is, I don't know any Sam haters™ and only know that they exist because I hear about it on this blog and a few others. I've never even been on Tumblir. I'm only telling you my thoughts on the matter and I'm not part of some world wide conspiracy of Sam haters.

I do feel like that assumption is shading the way you read my last post. The "oh the horror" reactions you had, etc.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Personally, I wish the story were more complicated and nuanced on this point, but it doesn't look that way so far.

Totally agree! Nuance isn't something that they do well. And after the very heavy handed episode we had recently I don't think we're going to get those nuances. Sadly.

So I'm puzzled that you think Dean wanting his own narrative in his life (even if this is something he keeps to himself and rarely allows out for air) -- and not just being the servitor of his brother -- makes him seem like a petulant child.

That was more about the way you phrased it rather than me saying I don't want that for Dean. I totally want Dean to have his own narrative (and Sam for that matter). That's why I said it made Dean sound like a petulant child, not that he is one. I don't see Dean has wanting to do things so he's the centre of the universe (which was how I interpreted what you said - sorry).

Don't you think he would be less glommed onto needing Sam if he had his own narrative for once -- and not just the role of "save Sam"?

Oh gosh yes! Believe me, its not just the Dean!gals that want Dean to have is own narrative. By creating Dean as this person who can't live without Sam doesn't do much for Sam either. It's the only hope I have for this storyline actually. That they are taking Dean away from that and both brothers can be somehow freed from this destructive co-dependence. That's not to say I don't want there to be a brotherly bond. I just want a much healthier one - one that's good for both of them.

He seems to think if Dean learns to treat him as a mere professional than he won't override his boundaries so easily and recklessly.

Oh I really love that reading on Sam. That makes great sense and not something I've actually considered. That's great actually - it gives more weight to why Sam said such hurtful things.

I'm only telling you my thoughts on the matter and I'm not part of some world wide conspiracy of Sam haters.

Thank you. The Sam hate takes me by surprise when I come across it - I don't go looking for it. One of the first things I read on LJ after the episode where Sam tells Dean he only saved him for himself was "Sam should eat a bullet". I accidentally wandered into a thread that was so vile toward Sam I just couldn't believe that they could even watch the show. Even on that interview thread it's pretty revolting. So yeah, there's a lot of it and I know I overreact to it. It's hard to take when one's this invested a character (I really do need to figure out how to quit this show ;D). I would react much the same way to Dean hate if I saw it (I don't see much of that I have to say. But maybe it's out there).

Thanks for the chat. Sorry I overacted. That's not my intention in discussions. You have some great insights into Dean and Sam and I always love hearing other fans perspectives.
xx

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

Nuance isn't something that they do well. And after the very heavy handed episode we had recently I don't think we're going to get those nuances.

Hum, maybe I am weird or intellectually challenged but I feel this show and the relationship between the brothers is incredibly nuanced even when it is being heavy handed. There always seem to be these layers to almost every episode. If it wasn't complex and nuanced, I don't see how there would be any discussion,thinky thoughts, or even dissenting viewpoints whatsoever. What would be the point of watching again and again, as I have done? I often end up seeing a completely different perspective each time I re watch an episode.

And, yeah, you could make the argument that fans, in general, have this amazing ability to analyze virtually any story or any character to the nth degree but I am of the opinion that there really does have to be something there to work with in order to do so.

As for the revisit of themes, I am a weirdo here, too, in that, for me, relationship issues, behavior, ingrained responses, feelings of self-worth, and personal growth do not work in a been there, conquered that, moving on now checklist fashion. (I sure wish it did as there's things I've been working to re-wire within myself for years! ;-)

So, I've never been irritated at the revisit of "Dean can't live without Sam narrative" (or any other thematic relationship revisit for that matter) partly because I don't quite see Dean that way but mostly because, for me, these two have lived in each other's back pockets for much of their entire lives. They became their own little island! Their whole road began with loss. I can surmise that fear of violence and loss was a constant in their early years. Subsequently, they have actually lost each other again and again and, I don't know, we don't often have the experience of losing a loved one only to have them returned to us. So, I can only imagine that, once you've felt that loss and grief, you'd do anything to prevent that experience again. (Death PTSD as it were.) They also live in this intense microcosm of violence and danger for which there seems little hope of escape. It is pervasive and it has been life-long. It just seems to me that there would be two fear based responses to this. Cling more fiercely to this life and that person, doing everything you can to prevent or reverse the Worst! possible outcome (Dean, Action/Doer, Active avoidance) or continually try to distance yourself or alter your own responses so that when the Worst! happens (again), and it will happen, you are not positively destroyed by it (Sam, Proactive/Thinker, Passive avoidance). And it is so true to these characters!! I am continually amazed at how this has been explored throughout the series run. Sure, there have been times that the execution has faltered, even from the very beginning, but I can forgive because this show has taken over my brain.

So, maybe I am a little less discerning than most but if that isn't a nuanced exploration of interpersonal character dynamics, I don't know what is. For me, it is one of the most satisfying things about this show.

But, anyway, I am stoked about seeing a Dark Side Dean! mytharc and I'll be eternally Sad if we don't get a Emotional Sam! POV in return because it is needed no matter the Extreme! Fan response. (Is that too many exclamation points or what. I don't know who started this online descriptive tendency but I love them for it.)

I am excited to see it all play out and I have begun considering that it isn't intended to be tied up in a happy Bro bow by the end of this season. (Which will make for a killer hellatus!) I'm also going to avoid the extreme Dean/Sam/Writers wank because it really does color my expectations and interpretations and makes me inordinately negative and frustrated.

(Which basically means I'm gonna be skulking about here and pretty much no where else from now on. LOL!)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Haha! I just saw your edit. "oh the horror"! If you knew me in real life you'd see how much that matches my personality. ;D I can be a bit of a drama queen…(quite literally in fact - I do a lot of acting, so there might have even been a backhand to the brow also…:D)