I Need a Hero: Missing Dean Winchester

[ash48]

As there is no episode this week I thought I'd post some thinky of one of my all time favourite TV characters - Dean Winchester.

I was replying to a comment on my last reaction post and I typed (about Dean) "He was once a hero to me, I just don't see that Dean any more. Sadly".

It really made me stop and consider what that actually meant. How could Dean not be a hero to me anymore? He's always held that place in my heart. My LJ profile has forever stated "I'm a Sam!girl, but not without my hero Dean".

What changed? When did I stop seeing a hero? I decided to write this down to make some sense of it.

This isn't about Dean "bashing" (seriously? How could I ever "bash" a character who has been dear to my heart since the show began?). This isn't about loving one brother over the other, or thinking one is in any way better than the other. At all!

This is actually about trying to piece together Dean's journey and find out when he went from being my hero to someone I don't recognise that quality in any more.

Before I start I will say that I fully understand that Dean's heroism isn't why everybody loves Dean. We all have different aspects of a character that we love. For me, his heroism is an aspect of his character that I have always loved and admired and the thing that I find I am really missing now.



I'm going to put aside quibbles about the writers not getting the characters "right" any more, or thoughts of character assignation. I'll even put aside thoughts that the characters I once knew just "wouldn't do that!" and take what we've been given at face value. I could say that Dean (and Sam) aren't characters I recognise anymore. And actually that's true. They have changed and as much as I'd love to see the Sam and Dean we started out with, the fact is these characters are older and have been through SO much it makes sense that they have changed. It also makes sense that they might not have changed for the better. Sadly.


I fell in love with Dean for many reasons. Initially it was his drop dead gorgeousness and cocky smile. Then it was his snarky-ness and carefree attitude. It was his brazen contempt for the law and superiority over "idiots" who didn't know what they were getting into when facing the supernatural. It grew even deeper when his love and protectiveness for Sam became really obvious. And deeper still when seeing his loyalty, his love for family, his commitment and dedication.

And on top of all that it was the way he embodied the modern day hero. We discovered in episode 1.02 (Wendigo), what drove Dean - helping people out. "Saving people", being the first of his life's motto. During season one we really saw that motto being played out. In Dead in the Water (1.03) he connected with a child (Lucas) that he could share a childhood memory with and then later risked his life to save that child from drowning.

As the seasons progressed we not only saw many acts of saving people but we began to see a multi-layered character who wasn't quite has cocky as we first thought. In Home (1.09) he let his guard down and his vulnerability came to the surface. We learned about his father issues, his low self esteem, his initial inability to see the "grey" in the "black and white" he'd been taught to see in monsters and his overwhelming need to protect his younger brother.

By the end of Season 2 we got to see the lengths he'd actually go to save Sam. He sold his soul and started a new journey toward valuing his life and facing eternity in Hell.

At this point Dean was still very much my hero. Dean had proved his willingness to face an eternity of misery and suffering so his brother could live (whether it was a good move or totally selfless is a point for another essay. And one I'd love to explore further one day).

During seasons 4-5 the dynamic of both Sam and Dean changed quite dramatically. Dean returned from Hell suffering PTSD and Sam was in a very dark place. However, they still continued to fight the good fight - not only with their own personal demons but with angels and demons being introduced to broaden their epic battles. During these seasons Dean became even more heroic to me as he fought for the human race. He was not only confronted with a brother who had turned down a dark path he seemed destined to take, he was battling Hell memories, dick angels, manipulating demons and his own sense of self worth. It all came to a head when he had to finally trust his brother to resolve the potential apocalypse that both of them were responsible for starting. One of his most heroic acts was standing by lucifer!possessed Sam as he beat him, but told his brother "I'm here for you".

There were a couple of moments in season 6 where Dean's shiny heroism started to dim. Both moments made a lot of sense in Dean's journey and were given context, but they were both moments that started to raise questions about Dean's compassion and ethics. First he beat the crap out of Sam when he discovered Sam didn't have a soul (You Can't Handle the Truth) and then he asked Castiel to wipe Lisa and Ben's memories of him in Let it Bleed. I remember watching Dean beat Sam and I am (now) ashamed to say that at the time I was almost cheering him along. I was as frustrated and pissed off with soulless!Sam as Dean was so I understood where that motivation came from. Looking back, I can see how horrible that was, particularly as Sam had no control over the fact that he didn't have a soul and was as scared and messed up as Dean was. It was brutal and showed the depths of Dean's anger and lack of trust in "this" Sam.

Wiping Lisa and Ben's memory was highly problematic and we started to see Dean elevate himself above others and their choices. We can see what Dean was doing in context and understand that he was saw this as protecting them. He almost got them killed and he thought erasing him from their memories was going to help them. On the surface it looked heroic - removing two extremely important people from his life (and him from theirs) for their own sake, but in terms of an ethical (and actually nonsensical) stand point it was neither heroic nor morally sound. At the time it could be seen as a "slip up" but as this issues emerges in later seasons it can be seen as part of his fallibility.

In Season 7 hero Dean was back Defending His Life and letting Sam know he can be his brother's "stone number one". No sooner is Dean seeming to find his heroic feet when he decides to kill Sam's monster friend, Amy, in The Girl Next Door (7.03). He not only did this after reassuring Sam that he supported him, but he kill her in front of Amy's son and left him just standing there. It was a blatantly cruel act and made me wonder what had Dean learned all those episodes ago when he understood "shades of grey". We can perhaps understand why he did it - he couldn't trust Sam so he had to make the hard decision and kill the monster because that's what they do, but it just seemed particularly callous, especially after working hard to get Sam to trust him during a time when Sam's brain was messing with him.

During the rest of the season though, Dean was still fighting the good fight against the Leviathans, and he still held the place of my hero.

Season 8 and 9 were the big turning points for me and it's only really taken me until right now to actually admit out loud (even to myself), that Dean is no longer the hero I once saw him as. I could say that it's merely Carver's "take" on him or that I'm not "seeing" him as I should (wrongly interpreting him etc.) but with the accumulation of the things he's done and said I'd say that what we are seeing Dean's heroism stripped away. I would like to think this is deliberate and part of his character journey - part of seeing what happens when a hero like Dean suffers as much as he has. If it isn't it would be pretty devastating. If this is a "new" version of Dean, then he may well be lost to me for the remainder of the series.

As with past Dean "problematic" moments I can see that they (mostly) have reasons and context. Dean chewed Sam out for not looking for him and, more importantly, ignoring Kevin during Dean's stint in Purgatory during We Need to Talk About Kevin (8.01). It makes sense - he was bitter and feeling hurt and responded accordingly. It's understandable, but the introduction of "bitterness" to his character is a layer that I didn't (and don't) find particularly endearing. I connected with purgatory!Dean and loved seeing his struggle with that darker side of himself. The introduction of "best buddy" vampire Benny was another fascinating layer. I loved his connection to a monster and after my initial unease with Dean's sense of disappointment with Sam I was starting to feel the love again. Then he did something that, to this day, I struggle with. It put a major black mark on his character and even in the given context - (save Benny) - I find it hard to look past. He used Sam's history with women (them dying) to trick him in leaving the hunt. It was manipulative and cruel. It then brought about the uneasy "resolution" to part one of Season 8 - the boys back together in a not so happy truce (and believe me, there's plenty that troubled me with Sam but as this is all about Dean, I'm focussing just on him).

By the second half of S8 I was able to almost forget the bitterness, jealousies and consequent meanness that started to appear and saw Dean back to fighting the good fight. The discovery of the bunker brought new life to Dean and his returning focus to looking out for Sam helped the love return. And as much as many don't like Dean in "care taker" mode, it's one of his qualities that I consider one of the most admirable in Dean (That is, of course, when he cares about Sam's welfare. Cares about his health - both mental and physical. And not just wanting Sam alive or feels that he has to call all the shots on what's "right" for Sam. That's very different - and thinky for another time).

After Dean listing all the things that Sam could repent for in Sacrifice (8.23) I was back to feeling let down and genuinely sad that it's come to this between them. Sure, Dean will tell Sam that there's "nothing I'll put in front of you", but that doesn't mean he'll hide what he really thinks of him at times - particularly when he's disappointed or even hurt by Sam. Again, in terms of character context, it makes sense. It's totally understandable that he was hurt by Sam "losing" his soul and by Sam not looking for him etc. But it felt unnecessarily cruel and even knowing how it was needed to motivate Sam to make his confessions, I was saddened by it.

Then came season 9. You might think that Sam forcing an angel inside Sam is the ultimate act of non-heroicsm for me. In many ways it is, but I can actually understand Dean doing this. As "saving Sam" is one of his main directives it makes sense that he'll do everything he can to achieve that. I also believe he did it because he felt like he was doing the right thing - and maybe he was. In order to keep saving the world it needs two Winchesters and if that means crossing a line to do so, well, they are the sacrifices that need to be made. I kind of get that.

For me though, the nail in the coffin and the thing that I now realise is the reason Dean is no longer a hero to me is that after everything - using Gadreel to heal people who died while he was inside Sam, not telling Sam what he'd done, Gadreel killing Kevin whilst inside Sam, Sam having needles stuck into his head, his tattoo burnt off and him being momentarily possessed by Crowley - after ALL that - the pain, the defeat, the sense of betrayal Sam felt he said four words:

"I'd do it again".

It's from this moment that the accumulation of all those "little" things finally added up and that was the final straw. It was the moment that told me that Sam's suffering mattered less than Sam being alive. That's not the Dean that I fell in love with, the one that said this in season one:

SAM: I wish I could have that kinda innocence.

DEAN: If it means anything, sometimes I wish you could too.


And there was nothing much in the end of S9 that changed my mind about that. There really wasn't the chance for him to either. The Mark had taken hold and his actions were governed by that itch. There were moments that it felt like Dean was fighting to get back to the Dean we used to know, but with him knocking out Sam and deciding to face Metatron by himself, his fate was sealed.

Then Dean was really gone. It was a wonderful relief watching demon!Dean because there was no longer a pretence of trying to do the right thing anymore. He could let loose and be who ever he wanted to be. He was, in fact, an absolute delight. Demon!Dean made sense because there was no hiding anything. There was no real inner struggle and he could allow his violence and verbal abuse to be free. Ironically, there were moments that reminded me of early Dean - possibly the lack of weight on his shoulders (?). Demon!Dean was far from being any sort of hero though. The complete opposite in fact. A reminder of what was truly missing from real Dean.

The problem for me is that the Dean I knew and loved hadn't really been around for quite a while. Demon!Dean was a way of escaping watching the "real" Dean become less and less like the original one.

And now, after 10.03, Dean is back, cured from his demon-ness. I should be celebrating and feeling great to have him back (like I did with soulless!Sam) but I have mixed feelings about him. Those niggling little things that existed before he became a demon are still there. It's not just things like telling Sam that Lester is all on him, but that overwhelming feeling that Dean hunts purely because he likes it. I know that Dean has always liked hunting, but the "saving people" aspect of their job seems long gone. Victims are almost dismissed (or not trusted, perhaps even nuisances). It's the killing and the thrill of the hunt that's more important. The fact that vessels are no longer considered victims or not seen as people that could be saved adds to the feeling that they are both, in fact, less heroic.

But I have hope (*clings to hope*). Dean's final words in Paper Moon (10.04) were "But I am just trying to do the right thing, man. 'Cause I am so sick and tired of doing the wrong one". This signalled not only that Dean knows it's been a while since he been all those things he used to be, but also that he maybe he's now on a journey of rediscovery. Hopefully discovering that the hero is still in there and even with all the shit he's been through (including the Mark!) he'll rise above it, acknowledge his mistakes and start to make decisions that might be tough, but hopefully more morally and ethically sound.

We'll see. All I know is that I miss him. I enjoy Dean's struggle, but I want to see him win in a way that doesn't continue to compromise the character he once was.

I think the moment when "saving people" becomes more important than "hunting things" we may begin to see a re-emergence of Dean Winchester - modern day hero. :)

Comments

[badbastion.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting this. I don't have much to say about it, but as I read it I found that you articulated a lot of things that has made me like Dean less over the last few seasons. I mean, I still love the guy! But he's made me uneasy for some time now, and I have a hard time trusting him. I know that he's grown and changed, and I appreciate that the writers are letting his characterization reflect that, but... Dean.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. It's good to know I'm not the only one. I felt I needed to sort some things out in my head (and heart!). And even though I'm feeling this now, I still love the character and always will. I sincerely hope they find a way of restoring some of his former heroism soon.

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

A great summary of how I feel myself. I've always loved Dean and I'm pretty sure I always will, but he has lost a lot of the heroic shine that was very much a part of what endeared me to him in the first place.

Both Dean and Sam are very flawed characters which is a huge part of why I love them. I don't put either of the on a pedestal, and I'm not one of those fans who wears blinkers and can see no flaws in my favourite character. Nor will I twist things to justify either of the boys actions as I see so many people doing.

Dean's shine began to tarnish for me in season 4. I'm not saying Sam didn't deserve a lot of the grief Dean heaped on him - some of his actions were horrific - but there was often such a level of self-righteousness in Dean that he became spiteful and cruel at times. Forgivable to an extent because of his own suffering, but still. When Sam reached out for help and told Dean he was Lucifer's vessel; something that is possibly the most terrifying revelation ever and Dean rebuffed him, I found that very hard to get past but I did. Until the moment the amulet was tossed in the trash in season 5. He was hurt, exhausted, and stretched beyond his limits, but it was such a cruel blow to deliver to his brother I found it hard to forgive.

I have similar issues with all of the other things you've mentioned, especially telling Sam he should pray to be forgiven for being brought back without a soul. I think that's one of the most callous and shocking statements in the history of the show. I was dumbfounded. And then after the mess with Ezekiel, instead of saying he couldn't be sorry for saving Sam's life (which I completely understand) but apologizing for deceiving Sam and tricking into the possession, he said he'd do it again. There was no remorse shown to Sam, and I think that's all he really needed.

I do love Dean, but I can no longer see him as the hero he once was. You're right, hunting things has become more important than saving people, and I'm hoping this is the turning point for both of them, where the reverse becomes true again.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

When Sam reached out for help and told Dean he was Lucifer's vessel; something that is possibly the most terrifying revelation ever and Dean rebuffed him, I found that very hard to get past but I did. Until the moment the amulet was tossed in the trash in season 5. He was hurt, exhausted, and stretched beyond his limits, but it was such a cruel blow to deliver to his brother I found it hard to forgive.

These were the exact breaking points for me, too. After "The End," I watched only tiny bits of S5. I was so angry about that episode. And then the amulet scene was one of the bits I saw, and I dropped the show completely for a while. I couldn't stop caring what happened, though, and when I read the description of "Appointment in Samarra," I tuned back in. That episode made me love Dean like crazy all over again, and I loved the rest of S6 and most of S7 (up until "Born Again Identity.")

I think that after S8-10, I'll never really come back around like I did in S6, but I'm glad that I got that chance to reconnect with the characters, even for a little while.

[kalliel]

I don't have anything to really say, but I just wanted to let you know that I really like this post. <3

I'm one of the people who has absolutely adored every moment of the trajectory you've outlined here (masochism)/that is the part I am in love with. My personal feeeeelings upon feelings aside, I think from a writing perspective, it's ballsy as hell! Because holy moly, the show has basically two characters to start with, so to just kinda like...go for it? Man. I'm both impressed and surprised at the duration and degree of all this, and happy that there are these hiccups and recursions and false starts (when Dean's "I'm proud of us" line came up in 9x23, my first reaction was, UHHH WHAT PART OF THIS ARE YOU PROUD OF, EXACTLY? XP), but! I too want a happy/moral/ethical upturn for Dean, in the end. And I agree about his line in 10x04-- think we're all ready for that (some of us, if not necessarily me specifically haha, have been ready for years!). I think Dean is (going to be) ready now, too. <3

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun, thank you!

And this is when I'm torn!! If they are examining the darker sides to their characters because of the lives they have lived then that's pretty interesting. And ballsy! I agree. I like them examining the darker sides to themselves and I particularly like it when they do talk about the moral issues (not sure many ethical issues have come up in their discussion, but they might).

when Dean's "I'm proud of us" line came up in 9x23, my first reaction was, UHHH WHAT PART OF THIS ARE YOU PROUD OF, EXACTLY? XP

Omg! So did I! I was just so flummoxed by that statement. Sure, the sentiment was awesome but there was very little that happened in S9 that either of them can be really "proud" of. Though, I took it as Dean's "final" words and in that context maybe is was simply about everything they had done to that point. Not just the recent stuff. I was torn between…"awww broment" and "ack! what?!"

I would like to be able to look back on all this as I did once S4 and S5 was over and SEE what grounds they are making. It was a long road for them during S4/S5 but they came through as heroes -both for each other and for the world. I am hoping that by rediscovering why they hunt things they may begin to see the light again. I suppose in the dark world they live in that's very hard.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Oh very well put. You have summed up what I was feeling but I hadn't done the necessary analysis of WHY. I have always loved a flawed hero, and never expected them to be perfect - but there are certain lines that a hero shouldn't cross, and Dean while he's been himself (not a demon, not possessed, just Dean) has crossed a few of those lines now.

I too hope this isn't just poor writing, and that they are actually going somewhere with this deconstruction, because, like you, I miss the man I fell in love with and carried on loving through seasons 1 to 5 without any reservation. Now - I have a LOT of reservations.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you hun. I was worried posting this because I don't want it to be seen as character bashing. I'd like to think we can analyse characters and see their flaws and problems without it being about hate. I think I do this because I have loved the character for so long. I want to try and understand what's changing in him. And I feel better after doing this I have to say. I feel like I can say - this is beginning to look deliberate and hopefully we'll see how this fits into future episodes. Both characters have a ways to go yet I fear.

But I am forever the optimist and hope it'll be ok again one day.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

I think the moment when "saving people" becomes more important than "hunting things" we may begin to see a re-emergence of Dean Winchester - modern day hero. :)

I love this post, and this sentence especially. I understand why it's so hard for Dean to dig himself out from under the metric fuckton of crap he's had piled on him, and the even bigger mountain of his own descent into darkness. That doesn't make it any easier to watch. You're right, though, that was a rare moment of hope. Maybe the title "Paper Moon" reflects that fragile glimmer of a light at the end of Dean's tunnel.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you sweetie.

That doesn't make it any easier to watch.

That's for sure. Even if they are consciously stripping back these characters and showing us their ugly sides so they can re-discover their "goodness", it's not easy watching.

Maybe the title "Paper Moon" reflects that fragile glimmer of a light at the end of Dean's tunnel.

Oh nice thought. Let's hope so. Sam once said he can see that light and even though that light dimmed for him by the end of S8, maybe he's able to see it again and help Dean make his way out.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I have been waiting patiently since the promise of Zombie Sid & Nancy in S3 for them to both realize they are really just attractive serial killers and finally give me full-blown Psychochesters

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Well, I suppose we did get the wonderful psychochesters in one of Robbie's finest eps - Slash Fiction. :) And who knows! this might just be the season we get that! Carver might just come through for you after all…;)

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

Now I think it's no wonder both my RBB prompts are RPF...
I agree with all you said.
*hugs*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. Lucky the Js are giving us lots to be excited about at the moment! :D I mean, Jensen moving to live 3 mins away from Jared and their children sharing strollers..*hearts in eyes*

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

You articulate the change in Dean's character very clearly. I have fallen a little out of love with SPN but hadn't put my finger on why, and I think your analysis encompasses some of the source of my sadness when I watch it now. We really can't get the early season brothers back because they have had so many soul-scarring experiences...but a tiny, tiny part of me wishes it had ended after Swan Song and I could have pretended that it was Sam for real under that streetlight and Dean managed to have a life with Sam, Lisa, and Ben in it...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you hun. I've been feeling that lack of love for a while and really finding Dean hard to connect the same way I used it. Writing this helped me understand things a bit more.

tiny part of me wishes it had ended after Swan Song and I could have pretended that it was Sam for real under that streetlight and Dean managed to have a life with Sam, Lisa, and Ben in it…

Aww, nice image. The only reason I didn't want it to end with Swan Song was having Sam suffering in Hell, while Dean suffered on Earth without him. For Dean having all the people he loved in his life would be wonderful for Dean. I'd even love to see Sam have a family and (just like in real life!) they share their lives with their families together.

[fufaraw]

I don't have a lot to add, but, ::nods. points. flaps hands. nods some more:: kind of sums it up. Thanks for articulating what I haven't been able to put into actual words.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I wasn't sure I was going to be able to put into words what I was feeling but once I started it began to pour out.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

This all just makes so much sense to me. Thank you for articulating what I've been feeling so clearly.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I sorry to hear you're feeling the same way, but glad to hear you felt it was clear. :)

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

Yes to all of this. I think somewhere inside Carver!Dean, Kripke!Dean is trapped, howling in anguish. I can see how he is where he is but it's no fun to watch. He just breaks my heart and makes me mad in equal measure. I miss him something awful.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

somewhere inside Carver!Dean, Kripke!Dean is trapped, howling in anguish.

What a brilliant image! Definitely a concept I can get behind, because Kripke!Dean would be appalled at the things Carver!Dean has gotten up to.

[fanspired]

I think there's maybe a gap between the story the fans want to see, and the one the show is actually telling. The fans want to watch a story about heroes, when it's really about the morally corrupting effects of war, revenge and the hero myth. Sam and Dean believed in that myth, but the more they pursued it, the less heroic they became. What they became instead was vengeful spirits. I've never forgotten Sam's description of vengeful spirits from Roadkill. It describes the Winchesters' fate perfectly:

"Well, there's some part of them that... That's keeping them here. Like their remains or, um... Unfinished business . . . It could be revenge. Could be love. Or hate. Whatever it is, they just hold on too tight. Can't let go. So they're trapped. Caught in the Same loops. Replaying the Same tragedies over and over . . . they weren't evil people, you know? A lot of them were good. Just... Something happened to them. Something they couldn't control."

In reality, of course, the thing that keeps brining them back is us. We keep craving another season, and another, and another, always hoping for for that elusive happy ending the hero is supposed to be rewarded with when, in actuality, what we are watching is increasing misery and depravity with each successive season until our 'heroes' are long past the point of deserving a happy ending, and all that's left for them to desire is just an ending.

I've also never forgotten HALucifer's comment to Sam, which I strongly felt was also a message to us, the lesson we've yet to learn: "it ends when you can't take it any more".

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh brilliant. Perfect way of putting it.

I think there's maybe a gap between the story the fans want to see, and the one the show is actually telling.

I think this is particularly true. More and more we are hanging on to what we've seen before and wanting to see that now. Almost grasping to anything that's remotely close. I remember fandom "celebrating" when Dean and Sam came back together midway through S8 and all I could think is - but this is tragic. It was heartbreaking and for the first time I began to think that they would be better off apart. But, as you say, we want (need!) them to be together so they have to keep find ways of achieving that.

Thank you. I love the idea of them being like vengeful spirits.

the lesson we've yet to learn: "it ends when you can't take it any more".

I think die hard fans (me included!) just don't know how to let go. I keep saying "I want to quit you" but maybe it's like watching a train wreck. I just can't look away.

[ephermeralk.livejournal.com]

I am just commnt to show my agreement and support of this post.

And I did like Dean saying that he was sick and tired of doing the wrong thing.

Admitting it is the first step to recovery.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you. And yes, that was my feeling about that line too.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I've had weird upswings of hope and downswings of despair about Dean. I find the Gadreel possession very, very hard to get past, and partly I'm aware that that's because it affects me on emotional levels (and even physical levels; it literally gave me tracts of insomnia and queasiness last year) that aren't strictly about ethical evaluation. Dean's hardly the only person on the show who has done terrible things -- I mean, Castiel is a mass murderer, Sam has killed and manipulated and forced a demon back into its host to kill it and has acquiesced and participated in the more general darkening of the hunting ethos (I think one of the most telling moments in the increasing bleakness of the show may have been none of the main three, but Bobby, who reminded Sam and Dean and the audience that Meg Masters was an innocent, suffering person, becoming as ready as anyone to torture demons in their hosts).

I think what bothers me more about Dean is that when he thinks about his own actions, even when he's aware that he's crossed a line and convinced himself that he "had" to do it (and every one of the characters has availed themselves of that plea of necessity at some point), what bothers me with Dean more than with the others is that he often comes across as thinking primarily, or even only, about how his actions affect himself. He's often spoken of as selfless, and I think it's true that he has a very decentered self, but he's so strongly absorbed in his own subjective world that it's like he can't come to the simple point of "I damaged you and I'm sorry." He hardly seems to be aware of how others exist outside the image of them he's clinging to or betrayed by or whatever. So many of his "you" moments are accusations (not just towards Sam; he often follows a similar pattern with Cas), and so many moments that should be "you" moments are "I" moments.

Like, I think there were some serious problems with Sam's speech to Dean in Trial and Error, in that the worth he was trying to convince Dean he had was so bound up with being a hunter, and feeling that his worth depends on being a hunter (which at the same time he's aware is something soul-killing) is a big part of Dean's problems, but, for all that Sam's understanding of what Dean might need was incomplete and maybe even unintentionally damaging, he was still trying to convince Dean that he had worth as Dean. Whereas Dean's speech at the end of 8.23 was to me in a way even more disastrous than the catalogue of Sam's sins, because it was a list of what Dean had done and would do for Sam, with no "you" in it, no affirmation that Sam's value came from his own experiences and actions and qualities. And in all of season 9, which literalized that tendency to treat Sam as an object and banish his subjectivity, Dean didn't seem to come to any awareness. It's not the magnitude of a character's flaws that has the capacity to lose me, its a kind of obliviousness to them.

I haven't actually watched Paper Moon yet (it's a bit ominous that I became reluctant to watch as soon as the show was set to embark on a repair process, because I'm SO nervous about whether they'll be able to do construction as well as they did destruction), but there's something weirdly hopeful to me about the fact that a lot of what Dean seems to be feeling right now is sheer embarrassment. I like that partly because Dean ended up where he ended up not as a direct consequence of his choices in the first half of s9, but through a series of evasions, so I feel like Dean's road back can't be a direct one, and he may need to work from the outer layer of shame inward before he gets at a more real ethical questioning. And I also feel a bit hopeful about it because guilt is such a comfortable state to Dean at this point, and has become a refuge from responsibility rather than a spur to it, that shame/embarrassment, even if it seems like an evasion of foundation work, is such an uncomfortable state that he's going to have to go somewhere from it, he's maybe at least got a sense of restlessness that will create some kind of movement. Like it might shake him out of that kind of self-absorption I was talking about above, even if the sense of outside reality that manifests in embarrassment isn't the most healthy thing.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

And just to add to that already ridiculously long comment: I'm not sure about the hero thing. It's a role that's been destructive, and not just ethically dubious, in SPN. And I see so much of Aeneas in Dean (they're, like, the classic two dark Hufflepuffs of all time /definitive contribution to Vergil scholarship) that I guess in the generic type sense I see him very much as a hero now, just in a world where that can be a damn bleak thing. So maybe what I hope for Dean is that he'll stop being a hero and get a chance to recover being a person instead.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

You know what, bb? I agree 100% with this thoughtful, on-target post. Dean HAS changed, and not necessarily for the better. (And you know how much of a (Sam-lovin')Dean!girl I am.) ;) I've not yet forgiven him for having Ben and Lisa mind-wiped, or for sending the fake text to Sam in S8.

Dean's not the same bulletproof hero he was in S1-S4, you're absolutely right. The Dean we have today is much darker. He's now a deeply flawed anti-hero, more in the spirit of Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" than John Wayne's white-hat cowboys. This new-and-(not so)improved Dean will do whatever it takes to get the job done, and sometimes those acts result in distasteful acts or collateral damage. No one will ever vote Harry Callahan as the most loveable character ever, but at the end of the day, he's still a hero -- if a very dark one. :)

These days, Dean is much closer to Harry Callahan than the relative innocent he was in S1. I'm not necessarily saying this is a good thing, but it is a thing. If that makes sense. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey honey!

but at the end of the day, he's still a hero -- if a very dark one. :)

Ah yes, it's a good point. Heroes are not necessarily always whited hatted ones. Hmmm, makes me think of that other Eastwood film (High Plains Drifter) where the hero is dark and dangerous. He fights the fight, but is not necessarily of sound mind. This could very much be Dean at the moment. And perhaps with a change of thinking and attitude I could learn to love this darker hero. I think while he (probably inadvertently) hurts Sam I will struggle with this version (because my heart aches so much for what Sam is going through). I think if Sam was equally dark (and OOOH! Maybe that's exactly what they are planning to do now! Sam has done a "dark" act to find Dean so maybe they'll be equally dark heroes).

but ack! I'm not sure i want dark heroes. Do I? Oh man, I'll have to think about this. In most cases I love dark heroes - or at least multi-layers ones. I think we can agree that both Sam and Dean are multi-layered heroes.

Thanks for the extra thinky! I feel like I need to ponder this some more. tebtosca mentioned above what to see the pyscho-chesters. Perhaps we are closer than we've ever been before with the version we have now…;)

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

Alot to think about here. I agree with pretty much everyone that Dean has changed (and so has Sam). He's much much darker, and more cynical, with that edge of bitterness. I don't know how a human could not be, after everything he's lived through, so it strikes me as realistic even if it isn't pleasant to watch. But I don't think Dean is as incapable of empathy as some others do. He's damaged enough to be egocentric, but not so damaged that he's without caring for others. Especially Sam, but others in a general sense too. I don't think that's gone - I just think it's been knocked down and dragged around until Dean himself can barely find it anymore. But it's there. And I think it will be back.

That's not to say that I think Dean will ever go back to being the kind of hero he was in S1 or S2. He'll always be darker, and he's capable of cruelty now, much more than he was in those early seasons. So is Sam. But I don't mind a flawed hero, especially when it seems like the inevitable place the story would go. The 'saving people' - I don't think it's gone.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hello darlin'!

Alot to think about here

haha! Well, I gotta say I think about this show A LOT! Far too much me thinks!

I don't think that's gone - I just think it's been knocked down and dragged around until Dean himself can barely find it anymore. But it's there. And I think it will be back.

I think it's there too - we still get to see it in-between all the darker moments. I can even see Dean fighting it at times (and I don't just mean the mark) - I like the little glimpses we get of him battling the options and really trying to see past himself.

but not so damaged that he's without caring for others. Especially Sam,

I think that is there, but it's one element that I am quite conflicted over. I am beginning to have the same sense that I've had with Dean and Cas over the seasons. We keep hearing how much Cas is important to Dean but we don't often see that in action. Same with Sam, we have these huge gestures of sacrifice and making the big saves, but when it comes to small things like acknowledging Sam's pain after the possession or offering comfort after all he's been through when curing Dean - we don't get see that (which I know is part of the storytelling). It's what I meant above by saying "I want Dean to care about Sam's health - both mental and physical". I suppose I want to see him getting back to caring about Sam on that level - not just him being alive. We saw that in his treatment of Kevin as well. So I'm thinking this is where we have to get back to. Not those huge heroic gestures, but those smaller genuinely caring ones (which I definitely know is still in there).

But I don't mind a flawed hero, especially when it seems like the inevitable place the story would go.

I loved flawed too. It's what always attracted me to these characters. I think I just want those flaws to mean something in their journey. As in, it's not ok to do certain things just because they are heroes. I want them to realise the consequence of their actions - not just on each other, or other people, but what it ultimately means to themselves.

I love that it's complex and interesting, but I'd really like to feel the connection I used to have with Dean (and even Sam at times). And I accept that it's probably just me and the way I see Dean

(sorry for the rambles! I'm still working through this…)

[liliaeth]

It's odd you say this, since to me, s8 was the moment I stopped caring about Sam, and no longer saw him as a hero. He was such an asshole in s8-s9 that I really just started hating him. The way he treated Dean was inexcusable to me.

the Sam I loved stopped being around when he abandoned Dean in Purgatory.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I accept that. We each have our own views on the characters. Sam was an "asshole" because Dean took away something that was extremely precious and important to him - his ability to choose (not to mention betrayal and deceit). In my mind, what Sam said in two episodes does not even come close to the hurt Dean caused. I'm not saying that Sam is innocent at all. He's not. But just like I have sited above - Dean acted certain ways for contextual reasons, so did Sam. Sam says stuff. Dean does stuff. They are both equally troubled and have potential to be nasty to the other (as we've seen time and time again). Curious that even though Sam said all those thing he never acted on them.

Sam abandoning Dean is purgatory is certainly a storyline or direction that I didn't like. I felt it was out of character, but at face value we might have to accept (though I do begrudgingly) that Sam did actually think Dean was dead and understood that making deals wasn't a good way to bring him back. They've obviously realised now that that wasn't a version of Sam that made sense with the previous seasons and returned him to the one we've seen in the past in S10. I have thoughts on that also (I'm probably one of the few fans that doesn't see their co-dependence as a "positive" thing - it's destructive and we've seen that evidence time and again.)

I think it's sad that you can hate either of the characters. I still love Dean as a character very much - this is my way of of analysing him without hating on him. I think he's on a journey of self discovery. As I think Sam is too. Perhaps you might try looking at Sam and try and understand his reasons for acting the way he did and see the bigger picture rather than simply "sam's an asshole".

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

I have struggled with this about Dean for awhile, but you have outlined it so well. Sometimes I think that TV writers in general think that they have to go dark in order to be edgy and draw an audience, not just with the subject matter, but also with the main characters. But I don't think that has to be the case. I saw a post on Tumblr the other day that was specifically about Steve Rogers, but it was also about writing good guys in general. I ended up crying while reading it because it also hit me as to what is missing in SPN right now

What’s interesting about good and moral people is that they actually have to try and function in a world that isn’t. And the older you get, the more interesting that becomes. Because it’s also the hardest thing to do in the world
The ridiculous thing about Steve Rogers is that he is everything that is brave, earnest and true. And no, he’s not perfect, he’s not a saint, he’s sassy and snarky and occasionally trips face first into the Land of Adorkable.
Doing the Right Thing is hard and it hurts like a sumbitch at times and you’ll get crap thrown at you every which way but Steve Rogers keeps going and somehow manages to stay kind and still be this sweetheart, despite everything else that would’ve broken other people long ago.

Many of these same things could be said of Dean at one time. Now, they cannot. Dean himself knows and admits this. "I'm just trying to do the right thing man because I'm so sick and tired of doing the wrong one," Doing the right thing because you are tired of doing the wrong one is not the stuff heroes are made of. It is better than doing the wrong thing. And maybe, like an addict, in admitting that he has a problem, there is a small bit of hope that he is taking the first steps to returning the hero he once was.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh that's interesting. There's been comments here about Dean being a dark hero and how that creates an interesting character (which, I agree to a certain extent), but I must admit I like watching "good" heroes - or ones that CAN function in a world that isn't. I think to a point Sam and Dean do a good job of that of the most part. Considering what they've been through they could be much much darker. I doubt Dean (or Sam) will ever be as wholesome as Steve, but the idea that they might rise above their current state of darkness and function above it is hopeful.

[lavinialavender.livejournal.com]

BEAUTIFUL essay! Seriously, A+ job, I will rec this to anyone looking for an in-depth analysis on what the hell happened to Dean over the series.

I can't even express how much I agree with this:
And as much as many don't like Dean in "care taker" mode, it's one of his qualities that I consider one of the most admirable in Dean (That is, of course, when he cares about Sam's welfare. Cares about his health - both mental and physical. And not just wanting Sam alive or feels that he has to call all the shots on what's "right" for Sam. That's very different - and thinky for another time).

And I love the hopeful interpretation you draw from the last lines of the last ep! It would mean everything to me if it were intentional on Carver's part -- if this is leading to an apology from Dean, to Sam, for the soul-forcing and, I don't know, every time he's hit Sam. That would get me to watch again.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you hun! I'm so glad it worked for you. :)

If this is leading to an apology from Dean, to Sam, for the soul-forcing and, I don't know, every time he's hit Sam.

To be honest I don't think they even remember any of the stuff Dean does to Sam. Or, if they do, they'd consider it in character or necessary and Dean had nothing to apologies for. Though, I have to say the soul-forcing I see much like Sam forcing Dean to be cured. They both saved each other from being something other than themselves. Whereas Dean forcing an angel into Sam is making him something that he's definitely not - or would have been willing to do.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Excellent post and I agree with nearly all of it.

I wouldn't even mind Dean not being cast as the 'hero' any longer, I've never looked for perfection in characters and I've always loved the layers and the gray areas of the Winchester story, but I do need to watch characters that I like, this bitter, cruel and twisted person is someone I can't watch any longer, because from the show's history, I know NONE of it will mean anything or lead anywhere, it's plain nasty for the sake of a dramatic argument and even those no longer have any forward momentum, two episodes later and it's like whiplash how everything is the same again and again, and again.

Somewhere along the line things are being done, some of them awful, some of them understandable but the characters are neither relating to nor learning from any of it, there's no connection any longer to many of these things. Sam being without a soul for instance, I mean where in the holy hell of deepest hell was that ever Sam's fault and why oh why could Dean think it was? Pissed me off so much, where did that come from? And then it's dropped, totally, why use a line like that with absolutely no purpose whatsoever?

It's a great piece and thank you for laying it all out, there has to be character growth and change, but Dean's turned along a path I can't follow, there's no sorrow or compassion for anyone but himself just lately, and while that again is understandable for what the character has gone through, the wallowing in guilt isn't engaging at all and the conversations he has with Sam these days are just too damned cruel.

There's a huge part of me wishes the show had ended after series 5, I struggled through many things they did 6 and 7, but 8.01 destroyed my love and the more I watch the more memories of the characters I loved get trashed, so I'm basically going though the motions of habit now, emotionally the Winchesters have already left the building.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I have a thought on Dean blaming Sam for soullessness and what we saw in 10.3. I think on some level Dean does blame Sam for Mary's death and the destruction of his childhood, and, while it's obviously totally irrational to think that Sam was at fault for what happened when he was an infant and Dean's fellow-victim in the collateral damage, and cruel to throw it in Sam's face, I think it's 100% a natural reaction for anyone to have who'd experienced what Dean has experienced. Since then Dean has been angry at Sam for a lot of things, some legitimate, some not Sam's fault but understandably occasions of hurt for Dean (I think it's profoundly telling that we see child!Dean react violently to Sam's mention of Mary in the Christmas flashback). And the strand of resentment we've seen in Dean, where he has trouble ever moving past an issue and letting go (not just a later seasons thing; part of Dean had worked through his feelings about Stanford in s1, but they came surging back in 5.16), I think has to do with a general displacement of anger, so that even occasions of anger that spring in part from a rational cause also bring up for Dean a huge, unprocessed backlog of irrational resentment. So at moments like the litany of Sam's sins Dean will throw together mistakes Sam has atoned for and soullessness, which was never his fault at all, because continuing anger about Ruby or irrational anger at the loss of Sam's soul is more plausible than anger at Sam as the innocent crux of the events that devastated the Winchesters, and Dean's hindbrain is often bringing up rationalizations (for himself as much as for Sam) when it looks like he's bringing up reasons.

I think if Dean could confront and work through the ways that part of his mind uses Sam as the convenient focus of his generalized and legitimate anger at the horrible things that have happened to him (and Sam is a natural, though not a fair, focus, given that he was the innocent crux of Azazel's actions and of much of John's warped parenting, though of course Sam is in both those a victim), he'd lose much of his anger at Sam and be better able to work through and move past occasions when his anger really does arise from a current clash, if only it were no longer getting tangled with supplementary or disguised anger from the way-back unresolved issues.

Which I guess is a very long-winded way of saying that I think it's possible to see 10.3 as returning to 8.23 and giving a bit more insight about where it was coming from, and thus potentially a chance for it to get worked out.

[anactoria.livejournal.com]

Wow, thanks for this post! Though I kind of have problems with the idea of heroes in the SPN-verse, I think that may just be a wording thing. I love how you've tracked the evolution(/devolution?) of Dean's character here, and I do agree that there seems to be some hope after the end of 10.04. I think that 'sick of doing the wrong thing' referred to a much longer-standing pattern of decisions than just the Mark/demon stuff.

And as much as many don't like Dean in "care taker" mode, it's one of his qualities that I consider one of the most admirable in Dean (That is, of course, when he cares about Sam's welfare. Cares about his health - both mental and physical. And not just wanting Sam alive or feels that he has to call all the shots on what's "right" for Sam. That's very different - and thinky for another time).

I find this really interesting, and I think that maybe the kind of caring some fans object to seeing glamourised and the kind that you're talking about here are two different things. The image of caring in general is so bound up with the ideas of self-sacrifice and unavoidable responsibility, and that can feed isolation and resentment towards the person being cared for. Dean certainly feels that, as we see in 10.03, and I think the 'my way or the highway' attitude he inherited from John is partly his way of coping, and it's a big factor when he does awful things. (Please note that that doesn't mean I think it excuses those awful things!) (I do wonder, in a totally non-scientific way, if part of why so many female fans seem to identify with Dean is that caring responsibilities tend to devolve disproportionately on women -- that sense of living for others and not oneself, and the way that can poison relationships with those others.)

Whereas just caring about the welfare of someone close to you without all that baggage is a much more positive thing. Like, when Dean cooks for Sam in S8? That's not something he feels obliged to do; it's an expression of love and hope. And I would love to see more of that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

Though I kind of have problems with the idea of heroes in the SPN-verse, I think that may just be a wording thing.

I do actually agree. I knew using the word hero would be a bit problematic, but as it's been my way of thinking about Dean for such a long time I wanted to examine my thoughts on him in that context. I think both Dean and Sam are set up as heroes (purely in terms of saving people and fighting the "good" fight while surround by so much evil) and it's their "heroic" vs human nature of them as characters and them in their relationship that the show is exploring.

The image of caring in general is so bound up with the ideas of self-sacrifice and unavoidable responsibility, and that can feed isolation and resentment towards the person being cared for.

Yes. It's why I mentioned that this area is something that I have deeper thoughts on. :) I think Dean's care for Sam and his "save Sammy" directive is massively complicated and, for the most part, the show does a pretty good job of how messed up that all really it. It doesn't gloss over the fact that their co-dependence is often damaging and not exactly healthy. I think we can say that Dean does resent Sam to a certain extent. It goes way back to Skin, when the shapeshifter tapped into Dean's mind and openly talked about his resentment. It happens again in S8 when Dean is possessed by the ghost. I think it's no accident that as a demon, Dean once again speaks of his resentment. "Normal" Dean rationalises is and I believe he genuinely does wants (and needs) Sam in his life. It's almost ironic that he will go to such huge lengths to save Sam and yet harbours some deep seeded resentment. Oh man, I could nut this out for ages. It's fascinating. (there's also the thought that because of that resentment Dean treats Sam pretty badly (some say abusively) at times).

Like, when Dean cooks for Sam in S8? That's not something he feels obliged to do; it's an expression of love and hope. And I would love to see more of that.

Yes, that's more of the "care" I'm talking about. We saw that during Sam and the trials but then it disappeared when he forced an angel into him. I know Dean had his own issues going on, but I don't think we saw a lot of him wondering what Sam was going through with Gadreel inside him. Let alone what he must have felt like know "he'd" killed some one again. I think it's part of Carver's view of the boys and the relationship. I suspect he sees the relationship as quite poisonous and is (hope fully!) looking at examining that some more. I'm happy to see all this "warts and all" approach, as long as there is some suggestion of growth and real reconciliation.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

I wonder, okay I enjoyed your reasoning and the way you explained what was inside that huge brain of yours, but I wonder...Did we ever really see a Hero? I know that's not going to be a favourable thought about question but did we really ever witness the Hero?

He himself admits that his father trained him to kill the evil things. It wasn't about saving people, it was about hunting things. It was only, in my opinion anyways, when Sammy arrived back, that he started looking out for the other guy, not just going for the kill.

And in his story, in his journey, we've seen him take the kill over the save a fair few times. The only moment I can truly remember Dean being, "The Hero" was during the debate about whether or not to sacrifice a virgin in season three.

I'm not saying he wasn't/isn't a good man, but he's always been the guy that was trained as a blunt instrument, Sam was the one who walked away and in doing so, probably saved himself that moment where he realised he was simply following his fathers indoctrination that the evil/the supernatural/the non human are deadly and should be put down.

Sam also isn't without his highly questionable behaviour. Lester for one. And that's just the latest example, but he did tend to be the guy who called Dean on his slash first ask questions later attitude.

I think we all *want* Dean to be a hero, but he just isn't, and not because he isn't a good and trustworthy loving man, but because he wasn't raised as such and it's extremely hard to throw off nurture versus nature.

And even in his 'Caretaker' mode, it isn't really about being the hero, or saving the other person, it's about...It's about needing to not let that person go.

I am the biggest Dean fan on the planet as are you and a lot of the other people here, but I have to say, I don't think Dean ever really was a hero in the strictest sense of the word. Anti hero-yes, hero, dyed in the wool out for the other guy all the time-no.

And just a quick note, the reasons behind his saving a lot of these people is very selfish if we look at it logically. He doesn't want to feel the weight of the guilt of the 'Caught in the crossfire' guys and girls, so the ones they save, they salve the two brother's conscience.

Sorry about the edits, my hand's really hurting today, my typing and spelling is awful today!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun! Thanks for your thinky!

Did we ever really see a Hero? I know that's not going to be a favourable thought about question but did we really ever witness the Hero?

Hmmmm, I think so. BUT, I accept that "hero" is a problematic word and not everyone's definition will fit mine. Personally, I do think Sam and Dean are set up as heroes. Even in the very loose term of being the "heroes of the story". But moreso I think we see are supposed to see them saving people and fighting "evil" as heroic. It goes above what everyday people can do and they do it without any reward. I certainly think we saw more of this in season 1-7, than we have done since S8. That's personal opinion of course.

It wasn't about saving people, it was about hunting things.

Yes, but I think the "saving people" was definitely part of it. When Sam asked Dean why they do what they do he turned to the victims and said - "because of them". He followed it up with "killing as many sons of bitches as I can", so I know the actual hunting is also a big part of it for him. I see Dean saving Lucas as an act that was very much about saving people - more than just the killing.

Sam also isn't without his highly questionable behaviour. Lester for one. And that's just the latest example,

Oh gosh yes. I think Lester is the least of it to be honest. S4 saw Sam at his most questionable. And one could even argue that not looking for Dean in S8 as questionable (personally, that's just bad writing OR lack of understanding of Sam's character). I could have listed all of Sam's questionable behaviours but as I was focussing on Dean for this I didn't.

And just a quick note, the reasons behind his saving a lot of these people is very selfish if we look at it logically.

Hmmm, I think our interpretations might be slightly different on this one. :) I think Dean saving Sam is often selfish (I know this is contentious but I do think there's a lot of truth in Sam saying "you did it for yourself"), whereas I think he saves people because he genuinely cares about that aspect of his job. Especially early in the series. He used to beat himself up if he didn't save everyone. Sam had to remind him that "we can't save everyone".

I agree that the hunting part is very important to Dean also and I like the idea that he does the "saving", to release some quilt. He possibly does that now, but I think early on he really did what to see people saved from the supernatural. Even if it's simply so no one else has to have the lives they've had.

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure how to reply to this because, like, you know I don't disagree, I've found this trajectory of Dean's to be distressing since...records indicate my first time through that last arc of S4?...but I am sad that you're sad!

More and more I think the question with the Mark has kind of become, that the dichotomy for Dean isn't as much hero and villain as I think he wants it to be? As he has become more and more efficient as an aggressor against threats to humanity - more and more of a conventional hero - he has also become cruel, even actively villainous, in his close relationships. And sometimes those are the same traits, even; frex, second-guessing yourself is a life-or-death liability to a hunter out in the field, but a non-negotiable necessity for being a decent person. There's no way to stop Abaddon from killing humans and stealing souls while worrying about Josie. I love the symbolism of the Mark of Cain, the way it makes him a source of power even as it saps his control and threatens to overtake his identity, the way it ultimately has to come at the cost of the most important relationship in his life.

IDK. I do think he's being set up to come back from it, that the Mark will lift eventually, but it's a long road. I'll believe he sincerely wants to do the right thing when he actually does the right thing (or at least, refrains from doing the petty, mean-spirited thing) when it costs him a little bit of wounded pride, rather than simply being a sentiment that's convenient to express when he's trying to get Sam to let him off the hook. Which he very well might follow through on the next time we see him! That could have been the turning point! I just don't think we have reason yet to expect that it was. I am actually a little curious to see if next week shapes out that way? In that the play can really serve as a harsh look in the mirror concerning the roots of a lot of these problems.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey!

I was hoping you might drop by.

but I am sad that you're sad!

haha! well, this show is all about the angst! I suppose I just find this version of the boys really hard to accept. Abusive!Dean is not a reading I want to be in the show or who this character actually is. I know there are more and more examples to support that argument and the more I see it the more distressing it is. Quite simply, I can't like an abusive character - especially when the abuse is aimed at a character I feel so strongly about. I don't want Sam to be a victim of his brother's abuse - it just hurts too much!

There's no way to stop Abaddon from killing humans and stealing souls while worrying about Josie.

Yes, that's an excellent point. I am extremely curious to see what direction they take with the mark. It has potential to be awesome.

In that the play can really serve as a harsh look in the mirror concerning the roots of a lot of these problems.

Oh god I hope so!! I am kind of dreading the next ep. Anything that's apparently a "love letter to fans" is bound to be - um, interesting. If they can throw in some character insight with the meta and fan love letter, then I'll be a happy gal! :)

[justlikeswimmn.livejournal.com]

Very interesting meta, an excellent review of Dean's journey from hero to, well, what is he now? I think he initially thought of himself as a hero (modeled after his father), an illusion that has been stripped away from him, and from we viewers. Indeed, the very attributes that at first seemed heroic (such as his desire to help/save Sam) ended out having very bad effects (allowing Gadreel to possess Sam, etc.).

There are no heroes in a life spent in violence. The psychic toll of any life spent killing others (even if the things killed are evil) is immense. Soldiers who kill the enemy, even if they have to save their lives, and the lives of others, pay a heavy personal price. The boys have had to kill to save others, but in self-preservation the tendency is to become increasingly removed and emotionally cold from the event. This cold, remote behavior has been seen time and again from Dean (especially in recent years).

Both Sam and Dean have suffered terribly, but especially Dean, with any heroic pretense ripped away, showing the ugly damage underneath. Between being tortured/torturing in hell, the constant death-dealing on earth, and the killing fest' in purgatory, Dean's drowning in blood. The illusions of 'hero' are long gone from him. It's been painful to watch that loss, but that's one of the more realistic outcomes in the unrealistic spn universe.

On the other hand, Sam as a character never seemed to buy into the heroic aspects of being a Hunter. So this has become Dean's journey. Not to minimize Sam's suffering, but he at least is not having to part from that particular illusion.

I miss the old hero Dean, but what he is now, though ugly in a lot of ways, is much more human, too. It's uncomfortable to watch his decline (especially when it's awkwardly written), but I admire the show for taking on this inevitable process. I have hope Dean will 'hit bottom' in his decline and begin his journey to become the 'righteous man' that he really is, deep inside. That journey will take real heroism! I'd like to think that's the direction being taken by the writers of spn...though I may be deluding myself here. We all need our self-illusions, right?!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey there,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I agree about the effects of all the killing they have had to do. It HAS to have an effect and, for the most part. I think the show does a pretty good job of showing it. Especially over this long period of time.

The illusions of 'hero' are long gone from him.

Yes, I agree that they are. I can't imagine Dean every saying "I'm a hero" like he did in After School Special, ever again. I can't imagine him ever feeling that either. I think, for him, it might be something more simple like seeing clarity in what he does and why he does it. Maybe even allowing the "saving people" to be the grounding that helps him survive all the killing.

Both Sam and Dean have suffered terribly, but especially Dean,

I'm not sure that one has suffered more than the other, though I think they have suffered differently. I would say that Dean is drowning in more blood than Sam- especially when considering what he did in Hell , but I think Sam suffers more from external forces - things that are done to him for which he has no control of. It's a fascinating dynamic.

On the other hand, Sam as a character never seemed to buy into the heroic aspects of being a Hunter

Oh yes, good point. The only time I think of Sam actively trying to be "heroic" is in Playthings when he needed to prove himself. But yeah, he's never thought of himself like that, even though he knows he does do some good (at times). It's possibly why I am so attracted and fascinated by Sam. :)

I have hope Dean will 'hit bottom' in his decline and begin his journey to become the 'righteous man' that he really is, deep inside.

Ah! "Righteous", that might be the word I mean instead of hero. He IS a righteous man and it would be wonderful to see him start believe that in himself again (and living up to that belief). The journey will be long and I hope the show doesn't take any short cuts. But man, I hope they do take that road.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Looking back, I can see how horrible that was, particularly as Sam had no control over the fact that he didn't have a soul and was as scared and messed up as Dean was. It was brutal and showed the depths of Dean's anger and lack of trust in "this" Sam.

It was brutal, and I didn't like that Dean beat him up, but at this point, Dean doesn't know that Sam didn't have a soul. All he knows is that Sam let him turn into a vamp, and Dean could've died. He also said "And I could've killed Ben." Dean is scared and he's angry. Also, "this" Sam wasn't "scared", because soulless!Sam can't feel anything. "Nothing scares me anymore! 'Cause I can't feel it."

Wiping Lisa and Ben's memories doesn't make any sense at all, and I chalk that up to bad writing. I mean, everyone else in their lives will remember Dean. And what if Lisa has pictures of her and Dean, or something else of Dean's in her possession? The whole thing is so ridiculous. That ep is one of least favorite of the entire series.

A lot of the examples that you've brought up (like Dean blaming Sam for being soulless)... I blame the writers. Because it doesn't make sense. And Dean is the one who told Sam (in Like a Virgin) that it wasn't his fault.

I also believe he did it because he felt like he was doing the right thing - and maybe he was. In order to keep saving the world it needs two Winchesters and if that means crossing a line to do so, well, they are the sacrifices that need to be made. I kind of get that."

And because of that, I don't see a problem with Dean saying that "he'd do it again."

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun,

Dean doesn't know that Sam didn't have a soul.

Yes, and it;s one reason why I could understand this action. I thought Sam wasn't actually Sam during the soulless story line. I thought he was an impostor so when Dean beat him up I was like - take that impostor! Turns out it was Sam and in hindsight it made me sad that Dean could be so vicious to his brother. But it's also very Dean, so it was believable.

Wiping Lisa and Ben's memories doesn't make any sense at all, and I chalk that up to bad writing.

It makes NO sense. What about her neighbours? friends? How screwed up would she be if everyone kept asking about Dean and she's like "who?". She's probably in an insane asylum (and wow, that would make for an interesting storyline in the future).

And because of that, I don't see a problem with Dean saying that "he'd do it again."

Haha, well, we know this is the "agree to disagree" point. I hate Dean for saying that - I think even more than the act itself. I have no problem with him saying he's try and save Sam again - but he'd try and do it in a way that Sam didn't have to suffer so much. If Dean thinks he could watch needles being pushed into Sam's brain again then…argh….Dean, he's your brother! I accept that he'll always try to save Sam (and now that Sam would save Dean), but I STILL want them to figure out that there are certain lines not worth crossing (and curious that Dean has already mentioned that in regards to Lester. My hope might be realised this season…;D)