Sammy chat...

[ash48]

Warning. Don't click if show crit concerns you. Please. I want to be able to say some stuff and invite others to do so if they want to, without retribution (not that I ever get that *hearts you all*, but I just want to warn that I want to create a space for people to chat about Show concerns). It's really about getting stuff off my chest - and yours too if you want to.

Disclaimer: I still love the show. I love Dean. I love these characters. Wanting more for a character I adore isn't me hating on the show for no reason.



I've tried so many times to write up some reasons why I'm despairing about S10 and basically Sam's lack of - well, everything: presence, storyline, emotion, hair etc. etc., but I can't seem to assemble cohesive thoughts. I have many drafts but I can't post them because I read through them and all I seem to be doing is complaining. Which is essentially what I'm doing, but I wanted to give good, sensible, compassionate reasons for why I'm complaining. And I just can't seem to. Not well anyway.

I did make one post - which I took down - which stated "Sam's storyline is fucked". I took that down because it didn't seem fair I should say that without reasons. The reason I wrote that is because after writing reams of words I came to that conclusion. And not just because we don't ever get to hear from Sam, but because his actually story-line (since S8) makes no sense.

But mostly it's the Show's utter disregard for anything that has gone before for Sam. I actually have no issue with the current supportive Sam, or protective Sam (at all!) - but I hate that they have not given us resolutions to ANYTHING that has gone before (and also make it seem as though this is a Sam we've never seen before. It's as though "Sam" started in S8 - when he decided not to look for his missing brother). We just have to accept that Sam is suddenly ok. That Sam was misguided for be angry with Dean last season and his "I lied" was his "I'm over all that" transition to this season. I am so frustrated and sad that we've not had one episode (or even a moment) that has given us any exploration of how Sam went from the last 2 seasons to this one. And as much as I love that Dean's character is being thoroughly explored and a clear story arc is emerging, I just wish they'd balance it with giving us just a little bit of Sam. I'm not asking for much, just a littlebit. A Sam that isn't merely "bad, thoughtless brother" or "silent supportive brother".

On top of that, I'm finding the fact that fandom is loving this Sam so much, disconcerting. I mean, it's so much better than "Sam should kill himself, he's an ungrateful, whiny, selfish brother who doesn't appreciate Dean" but it suggests that the "best" Sam is a silent, supportive Sam. I get that current Sam is the one we love - being there for Dean, accepting Dean for who he is, saying the right things, being a tower of strength - but he's all those things without depth or reason. I know WE can make up those reasons (and there's a bucket load of them!) but I want the SHOW to do that. Show us that because Sam has been "other" that he understands what Dean is experiencing. Show us that Dean knows that's why Sam is so strong. Show us that Sam has a deep understanding of what it's like to carrying "evil" within his veins and that's why he's so good at this. Show us that Sam has beaten this and that's why he knows Dean can. Remind us that Dean actually locked Sam up when Sam was fighting his demons - and beat the crap out of him when he found out he lost his soul. In all honesty, I don't think they even remember what Sam has ever been through.

I dunno. I wrote on twitter that it's a bad time to be a Sam!girl. It just feels like that. We've had a season where his character went back to another universe where he only wanted a normal life, to a character who was prepared to die to save the world but failed, to a character who is betrayed by his brother and loses his autonomy (S9), to a character (this season) who worries about his brother. All this without ever really getting to know how he feels about any of it. And I don't mean feelings like "anger" and "love" and "worry". It's about feelings in context to everything else. Like we are seeing with Dean. Dean's unravelling story arc is deep and full of emotion tied to his childhood and past mistakes and self esteem and sense of worth and how he feels about Sam and pretty much everything we know about him. Sam's is tied to…? *sounds of crickets*…. (I think it's tied to aa writing team and show runner that haven't quite figured out who Sam is. They prefer the plot devise, emotional catalyst (for Dean) and enigma).

And maybe that's deliberate. I think we're heading for S4 Sam soon (as we've already had S1, S2 and currently S3 Sam) and I'm not at all feeling confident that we'll get the corresponding emotion we got back then. We currently have S3 Sam - worrying about Dean and trying all he can to save him. But at least we had Mystery Spot back then to give us great insight into Sam's sense of helplessness.

Is there light at the end of this tunnel? Perhaps I should just be satisfied with "good brother" Sam. And boy am I going to love it when he turns "dark side" and completely wipes out any progress he's ever made as a character. Or maybe I'm jumping the gun. If Sam actually manages to save Dean without compromising his character I'll stand corrected on all of this (though if they want to give us dark!Sam and dark!Dean together and really go there, I'll go along for the ride).

(dammit. It's late. I'll post this anyway. I'm sure there's a million typos…)

Comments

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

You know, i haven't been this confused about the show since 7X17. I'm not going to leave deep thoughts here because that's never my forte. I just want to get this off my chest.

When I post comments under people's reviews of S8,9,10 episodes, the thing I said most was how much I loved Sam's hair. There has been things they could work with Sam's storyline, like the loss and regain of autonomy, but the show always derailed for no reason, leaving fragmented and twisted interpretation of situations. Yeah we can say the show's from Dean's perspective, but they should at least let other characters point it out.

Apart from downplaying the negative things Sam has been going through, they kinda take away the active things Sam could do as well. In the past, Sam was beaten and choked a lot, but he always got up and showed the attackers they shouldn't have messed with a Winchester. Now Sam's playing the damsel in distress so loyally I can't. Would it kill the writers if they let Sam throw a few punches before getting thrown to a wall?

And recently I feel like Sam has become a bystander instead of part of the story. I'm just not ready for Sam's transition from a main character to a ... minor character. People may dislike S4 Sam because he plays against Dean and messes things up, despite his good intentions. But that uncertainty is what gives S4 tension and suspense. I think the show is half less interesting when Sam's silenced.

i'm not positive that Sam's story would pick up in the latter half of the season because there's still Metatron. There's Crowley and Rowena and angels and demons I don't give a rat's ass about because I'm too upset with Sam's silence.

Thank you for this post. I really need it.

[ayane42.livejournal.com]

yes, i get frustrated with the seeming lack of direction.

like you said, season 8 premiere. sam doesn't look for his brother. ok, i can dig that. did sam think dean was dead? did sam look for him? try a spell to raise him or find him? no. and there wasn't a sufficient explanation for me. and that was in the back of my mind until sam started the trials. but then the grand canyon mistake, grrrr. that threw me right out of it and i started grumbling more.

i think it was you ash that pointed out that the first part of season 8, with the flashbacks and the hotels and clothing choices i was thinking, hoping that sam was being manipulated by naomi, or something that had him all fucked up and that's why he didn't look for dean. or amelia was a demon, but something substantial that explained why sam just left and didn't look for dean.

but yeah, i still love this show despite it's many goofs and bad writing and forgetting where dean and sam came from.

i feel your pain!!

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I haven't particularly liked EITHER Sam or Dean since Carver took over. I'm all for Dean having the mytharc and for Sam to be the supporting, helpful brother. But they need to give both characters' their voices, not turn them both into opaque, 'on the surface' annoying whiny characters - which is the way they appear at first glance

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

You know I'm a dyed in the wool Dean!Girl but I still maintain Dean is only half a person without Sam - and as far as I'm concerned, Sam's been largely missing since the beginning of Season 7. We've had a bunch of versions of Sam, and Jared's had some of fun with those, but we haven't had any character development for Sam Winchester, Dean Winchester's little brother and sole focus of Dean's life.

So though I'm enjoying this season, and (mostly) enjoying Dean's story arc, it's lacking the depth and power of seasons 1-6 because Sam isn't part of this story. Like chomaisky says, he's a bystander, an observer. He chips in with a strong shoulder every now and then, but basically, he's conspicuous by his absence and I really don't like that.

Throwing in the odd hug, the concerned looks, the occasional eye-roll and bitchface just isn't enough. To be honest, I have no idea what a newcomer to the show is getting out of their relationship, because if I wasn't so solidly grounded in what has happened in the past, and all the things they have been through together (good and bad, as brothers and as rivals and as two people who love each other so much they'd die for each other), then I can't think I'd get hooked today.

As it is, I'm invested and have to see it through whatever happens, but I miss my boys and want them back.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I am all for Dean getting the mytharc. It is about time. But I still want it to be about 2 brothers, not just one. We have so much telly with one POV already. I want them to show Sam and Dean in all their flawed glory. They are both characters that can inspire. For example, I'm rather short and weedy but I could help fight evil with research like pre-teen Sam. I want to see Dean in all his beautiful, brave, idiotic splendour, the way only a brother could see him. And Sam, his desperation to harness everything for the higher purpose, even if he is struggling with its source

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I've never understood Dean, but I've wanted to, because Sam loves him.

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm loving alot about this Season, but I remain frustrated too with the lack of Sam pov. I love how he's being now, but I'd love even more to hear *why* he's being the way he is. How did he come to it, come to terms with so much in the past? What connections is he making to his own struggles, seeing what Dean is going through now? How is that helping him empathize, which he clearly does? But that's Jared silently showing it in an expression, a gesture. I need to SEE and HEAR more. What I love about Dean (and oh boy, do I love Dean) is the way he loves Sam. In order for that to be compelling, I have to know who Sam is too.

[fufaraw]

Thanks so much for this. I appreciate both the space and the commentary. I've not really been able to articulate my frustration and disappointment with what seems the deliberate disuse of Sam as an agent of story in recent seasons, so reading others' articulate just that helps me organize my own thoughts and opinions.

I think at core, it's a complete misunderstanding of who Sam is, and a reluctance to veer their focus from 'the Hero' of the story, who isn't Sam, as we were led to believe in S1, but Dean. I have no problem regarding the characters *both* as heroes, it seems to me that villains and obstacles should come from outside that relationship, that the characters should reinforce each other, combine to cover each other's weak points and give space for each one's strong points to shine. But that seems too much for the writers to manage. Peril and chaos and strife, either real-world or other-world, seems beyond their imagination, so they sabotage one brother or the other--but usually Sam--to provide the angst, the strife, the impending doom threatening to strike down the heroes, or their world, or both.

Which seems to me a deep misunderstanding of the mythos, and lazy writing.

[stormcloude]

I wish I could erase the Carver years off the map.

[stormcloude]

Well said.

[heliokleia.livejournal.com]

"We currently have S3 Sam - worrying about Dean and trying all he can to save him. But at least we had Mystery Spot back then to give us great insight into Sam's sense of helplessness."
- And isn't it ironic, 'Mystery Spot' was written by Carver himself!!
*lolz*

Well, you know I'm a little bit more Dean!girl, but just a little bit...
- But I'm with you here, sweetie, after the first three episodes of s10 I really had hope that Carver and his new staff of *coughs* writers got it finally, after two seasons of partly horrible SAM-writing.

Trust me, you're not the only one who's waiting and waiting and waiting for some Sam POV, more Sam kicking ass gain - and more Sam in action in general.
*nods firmly*

Good, like Jared himself, I appreciate the s10 Sam so much more than the s08-09 version and am glad that the brothers are talking again to each other [Winchester style, of course] and that they have each other's backs again, but moi too, dislikes that Carver & co are now showing us nothing but Princess Samantha, the Damsel in Distress in the second half of the season, that far.
Not cool.

In my eyes, both Hotties are equal, both have their good times and also their bad times. And in the Good Old Times, Show gave us both and all fangurls were happy.

*sighs* I really don't know what's wrong with Carver and his *coughs* new writers, since he came back.
- But I'm sure, if Kim Manners would still be around, [bad] things like that what you're writing about above, wouldn'd have happened.

So thank you for sharing your thoughts, honey and let's hope for a silver lining somehow...
- And in the meantime, I'm making the best of it - and just watch the double hottielicious eyecandy, if the writing is going totally underground again... ;)
*winks & waves*

P.S. Typos? - What typos? *g*

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

And it isn't like they don't have a mechanism to do this - they could easily have Cas being Sam's confidante for real, rather than just implying a conversation like they did right at the end of this last episode. We could have had one or two conversations sitting on park benches between these two - the ones who love Dean best - and allowed a) some nice bonding between the characters b) insight into both their motivations and how they see Dean and c) a better reason for keeping Castiel's character around than any stupid angel politics could give us.

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

The thing that gets me is that Sam has always been supportive of Dean. Always. This is something that Sam has always done throughout the seasons. But he wasn't without a voice and he had his own opinion and thoughts.

However, people act as if this is something new and are jumping for joy like 'yes Dean needs someone to tell him he's worth something!!!!!' but Dean has always had someone say that, not just Sam. From side characters to angels etc.

Dean's issue is he doesn't believe that himself, not that he was without support (like Sam in some instances)

It's just aggravating on a whole new level to me. We either have to get Sam being 100% complacent and silent and lose his personality and opinions, or we get a Sam who everyone calls a selfish, whiny bitch who is ungrateful because he is voicing his opinion.

It's like two extremes and I can't fathom a reason the show can't merge Sam into one. Why can't Sam be supportive and still have his own opinion? His own fire etc. Just because Dean is dealing with the mark doesn't mean that he needs to be cuddled and babied. They still have a lot of issues like you mentioned that have not gone resolved, and I'm beginning to worry that the writers assume that Sam bringing any of this up would be a low blow or too harsh for Dean right now.

It just makes me want to rip my hair out sometimes.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And Sam used to call Dean on his bullshit. So did other characters who are all dead now. Actually that's a good way to add complexity to the plot and presenting multiple perspectives, and I don't know why the writers stop doing that with the tons of characters we have now in favour of doing lame ass gang stories.

[zara-zee.livejournal.com]

I know WE can make up those reasons (and there's a bucket load of them!) but I want the SHOW to do that. Show us that because Sam has been "other" that he understands what Dean is experiencing. Show us that Dean knows that's why Sam is so strong. Show us that Sam has a deep understanding of what it's like to carrying "evil" within his veins and that's why he's so good at this.

This articulates my feelings perfectly! I LOVE supportive, caring, understanding Sam, but I want Show to give us more of his emotions and perspective, because there is a depth to his understanding of Dean's current situation; he's been there; it's not just, 'oh I'm a nice guy with nice hair who's being nice'.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Don't click if show crit concerns you. Please. I want to be able to say some stuff and invite others to do so if they want to, without retribution.

LOL, I think I'm gonna start posting that particular disclaimer in my neck of the woods. Ash, you know exactly whereof I speak, I betcha. :)

Show's utter disregard for anything that has gone before for Sam.

Even us Dean girls have noticed that, bb -- and yes, I miss brainy!badass!Sam, too. Once upon a time, Sam was a scarily intelligent, clever, ass-kicking Winchester who actually had *gasp* thoughts of his own. But we lost him, and this began long before the FUBAR'ed mess of S8. I'll probably get crap for this, but I really think the marginalization of Sam began as far back as S6, when more and more time was devoted to boring angel politics and Castiel rather than Sam and Dean. Then came Kevin and Mrs. Tran and others who took over the "smart problem-solver" role that Sam used to have. I don't even know what to say about how, these days, Sam is almost immediately thrown into walls and knocked silly before he has the chance to be his lethal Winchester self. :(

HOWEVER. I'm fairly confident (or is that "hopeful"?) that as the season advances, we'll get the pared-down, ruthless and scarily focused "Mystery Spot" Sam as he tries to solve the issue of the MoC.

. . . I hope.

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

You know, people bitch so much about seasons 6 & 7, but I enjoyed those miles more than almost everything that has come after. Because I recognized those characters. Because their past had consequences and influenced the logical progression of their characters. Because plot actions were consequences of characterization and characters reacting to events, not the reverse, where characters are rewritten and reset to serve the plot, even if that plot flies in the face of what has come before.

Other than the Men of Letters (and the trials, for selfish h/c loving reasons), I could happily rewind it all and let Sera keep going. At least what she did felt like SPN to me.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I has driven me crazy that Sam has so little to do. Disclaimer: this semi-opinion might be unpopular. Call it an uneducated guess.

Sometimes I wonder if Jared just wants to do the least amount possible at this point. Imagine how much less time it takes to shoot his scenes if all he has to do is stand around in the background.

From what I've seen of con footage, Jared is a big ole diva (all actors are, and he's a sweetie pie), but it doesn't seem like he cares that much. Conventions, spending time with his family, I think those are more important to him. Actually, the conventions are probably a studio contractual thing, but do they have to do so many of them--?

Just tossing it out there.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I've seen this brought up before. My understanding is the ONLY thing Jared has asked for is that his shooting days be arranged so he can have weekends so he can go home to his family. So if they only have written three days worth of shooting for Sam's character, he has requested that those days be shot Tues, Weds and Thurs. That is it as far as I know. He may want time off, but I can't imagine that he wants the days he has to spend away from his family to be filled with standing around, having no character development and not having any real acting to do. Jared always has said he loved stretching his acting muscles by playing the various facets of Sam. Even if he wants a light work load, I would think he would want a satisfying and fulfilling workload when he's there. When Sam has had actual lines and something to play, he hasn't slacked off that I can see.

I don't know what is going on. But I really think it's more the writers have no clue how to write for Sam. I know that at conventions before the season started, Jared said he talked to the writers and he wanted Sam to be the one to save Dean. Then when the time came, Dean broke out and Sam had to be saved by Cas. Then Dean's cure continued OFF SCREEN so we never saw Sam cure Dean, only that Dean got cured and Sam was a big old dope who couldn't even keep Dean confined long enough to be cured. Jared may just be discouraged that Sam didn't get a complete win. He may be a diva, but he isn't big on complaining. The only time he ever criticized a storyline was Amelia. I really think it's the writers.

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

LJ ate my first snarky comment so here is a more reasonable note. I think for whatever reason, the show has abandoned the more complex characterizations of the early seasons. Instead, especially with the Carver years, they've focused on the plot and the characters have been molded as the plot required. That means that a lot of the nuance we had has been lost as the characters have become more two dimensional. What's left is the surface stuff for each character and they've leaned more on character tropes rather than using the characters that Sam and Dean were becoming. They have entirely ignored any character growth made by the boys. Dean has always had more outwardly defining behaviors and he was originally created more along the lines of a stereotype to begin with so there's more outwardly recognizable left now and I think they had a better grip on who they thought he was. Sam was a much more complex character to begin with and I don't think the show knows how to squash out the nuance and complexity and still give us what is essentially Sam. So much of what had happened to Sam went on in his head too. I think this season, they need good!Sam right now but they don't really know what that looks like other than research, riding shotgun, and eating salad. Because they haven't really got a grip on who Sam is and they are so busy trying to make their season arcs work, they've had Sam do some really OCC things in the last couple of seasons. That's fine if you can sell it but they never made it believable. Plot lines have come and been dropped, canon has been ignored, continuity stinks. They've had all the characters acting beyond dumb at points either to make a plot work or for laughs.

I really hope I'm wrong but I have a really bad feeling about where this is all going because Sam's last comment was that 'Dean's in trouble'. That's after we find out that the Mark is driving Dean toward fratricide. Sam, you're in trouble. This is all shaping up to be another chapter in the domestic violence that is the recent Sam and Dean dynamic. They can have Dean beat on Sam but hide behind 'the Mark made him do it'. With the way things go, the cynical part of me thinks they'll find a way to make that Sam's fault too. Blame the vic for his own abuse. Then they'll have Sam go dark or make the ultimate sacrifice because heaven forbid Dean clean up his own mess. Bah. I hope I'm wrong. I wish I trusted them more but I've been emotionally burned to a crisp.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I am so frustrated by the lack of Sam development really since Carver took over. I could accept that Sam believed Dean was dead and so didn't look for him after season seven. But the complete and total refusal of the writing staff to even attempt to show him immediately after Dick Roman blew up gave us no context as to his decision. One of the few episodes where we heard that he never felt clean was the same episode that totally contradicted canon by telling us that Sam and Dean went to the Grand Canyon when they were kids. When Sam realized he might die completing the trials we never got to see one human feeling about that. We saw Dean angsting that Sam might die, but Sam, well God Forbid Sam have any feeling about probably dying.

Then came season nine. Fans actually agreed that what Dean did in tricking Sam was awful. As soon as Sam found out, his voice was silenced. He wasn't allowed to talk about feeling violated. He wasn't allowed more than one sentence about how it felt to kill Kevin. He wasn't allowed any reflection on what happened to him. If he had it might have taken away from Dean's endless manpain and Dean's manpain is the most important thing ever.

This season Sam is just disappearing into the woodwork. On Spoiler TV the write a Gripe Review. The reviewer actually liked this episode because Dean got to play his proper role "the Hero", Cas get to play his proper role "The Rock" (for Dean to lean on) and Sam gets to play his proper role "The Believer", who does absolutely nothing other than adore Dean and prop Dean's ego. I HATE that view, but I do think that is what the show has decided, that Sam must only support Dean. He must never have an opinion of his own. And if he does act as an independent human being he must be slapped down and proven to be wrong and evil.

My big fear is that they are moving toward making Sam wrong again. That Dean, branded with the MOC will be a better more decent person than Sam and Sam will have to be taught a lesson on being a good person and a good brother. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

HOWEVER. I'm fairly confident (or is that "hopeful"?) that as the season advances, we'll get the pared-down, ruthless and scarily focused "Mystery Spot" Sam as he tries to solve the issue of the MoC.
That'd be weird, you know. Like, what have you been doing earlier? You know if you had done something, had tried to find another way, Dean wouldn't have been in this bad spot in the first place, or at least we know you tried.
The story telling is already truly fucked, nothing they do in the latter half of the season can salvage this. I'm sorry but I'm depressed.
<333

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Like, what have you been doing earlier? You know if you had done something, had tried to find another way, Dean wouldn't have been in this bad spot in the first place, or at least we know you tried.

"At least we know you tried"? Not sure I understand, bb. We DO know he's tried, and how hard he's tried. Since 10.1, Sam has been trying his ass off -- to find Dean, to cure him of demonhood, and now to solve the MoC issue. Tortured demons, did unsavory things, and risked his life to capture demon!Dean and help him. And now he's trying to figure out curing his brother of the Mark, something blessed few people know about. Sam's scary-smart, but he's not Superman. :) IMHO, the storytelling's been fucked for a while -- over the past few seasons, all the angel drama has stolen screentiime / character development time away from Sam. (Dean, too, but to a lesser extent.)

That said, I totally agree that we haven't seen ENOUGH of Sam's efforts. But he certainly hasn't been just twiddling his thumbs all this time..

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: I still love the show. I love Dean. I love these characters. Wanting more for a character I adore isn't me hating on the show for no reason.

*Seethes quietly in the corner* Ash, honey, you should not have to put this as a disclaimer on your own freaking journal! *ahem*

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

for whatever reason, the show has abandoned the more complex characterizations of the early seasons. Instead, especially with the Carver years, they've focused on the plot and the characters have been molded as the plot required. That means that a lot of the nuance we had has been lost as the characters have become more two dimensional.

Spot-on. In the earlier seasons, Kripke was showrunner, and if anyone knew Sam and Dean's characters and motivations, it was he. But also, in the early days, some of TPTB were ex-X-Files people -- Kim Manners and John Shiban -- folks who already KNEW how to make a good show. Shiban moved on, Manners passed away, everyone left suddenly got an angel boner and forgot about the brotherly heart of the show, and . . . well, here we are. :(