Sammy chat...

[ash48]

Warning. Don't click if show crit concerns you. Please. I want to be able to say some stuff and invite others to do so if they want to, without retribution (not that I ever get that *hearts you all*, but I just want to warn that I want to create a space for people to chat about Show concerns). It's really about getting stuff off my chest - and yours too if you want to.

Disclaimer: I still love the show. I love Dean. I love these characters. Wanting more for a character I adore isn't me hating on the show for no reason.



I've tried so many times to write up some reasons why I'm despairing about S10 and basically Sam's lack of - well, everything: presence, storyline, emotion, hair etc. etc., but I can't seem to assemble cohesive thoughts. I have many drafts but I can't post them because I read through them and all I seem to be doing is complaining. Which is essentially what I'm doing, but I wanted to give good, sensible, compassionate reasons for why I'm complaining. And I just can't seem to. Not well anyway.

I did make one post - which I took down - which stated "Sam's storyline is fucked". I took that down because it didn't seem fair I should say that without reasons. The reason I wrote that is because after writing reams of words I came to that conclusion. And not just because we don't ever get to hear from Sam, but because his actually story-line (since S8) makes no sense.

But mostly it's the Show's utter disregard for anything that has gone before for Sam. I actually have no issue with the current supportive Sam, or protective Sam (at all!) - but I hate that they have not given us resolutions to ANYTHING that has gone before (and also make it seem as though this is a Sam we've never seen before. It's as though "Sam" started in S8 - when he decided not to look for his missing brother). We just have to accept that Sam is suddenly ok. That Sam was misguided for be angry with Dean last season and his "I lied" was his "I'm over all that" transition to this season. I am so frustrated and sad that we've not had one episode (or even a moment) that has given us any exploration of how Sam went from the last 2 seasons to this one. And as much as I love that Dean's character is being thoroughly explored and a clear story arc is emerging, I just wish they'd balance it with giving us just a little bit of Sam. I'm not asking for much, just a littlebit. A Sam that isn't merely "bad, thoughtless brother" or "silent supportive brother".

On top of that, I'm finding the fact that fandom is loving this Sam so much, disconcerting. I mean, it's so much better than "Sam should kill himself, he's an ungrateful, whiny, selfish brother who doesn't appreciate Dean" but it suggests that the "best" Sam is a silent, supportive Sam. I get that current Sam is the one we love - being there for Dean, accepting Dean for who he is, saying the right things, being a tower of strength - but he's all those things without depth or reason. I know WE can make up those reasons (and there's a bucket load of them!) but I want the SHOW to do that. Show us that because Sam has been "other" that he understands what Dean is experiencing. Show us that Dean knows that's why Sam is so strong. Show us that Sam has a deep understanding of what it's like to carrying "evil" within his veins and that's why he's so good at this. Show us that Sam has beaten this and that's why he knows Dean can. Remind us that Dean actually locked Sam up when Sam was fighting his demons - and beat the crap out of him when he found out he lost his soul. In all honesty, I don't think they even remember what Sam has ever been through.

I dunno. I wrote on twitter that it's a bad time to be a Sam!girl. It just feels like that. We've had a season where his character went back to another universe where he only wanted a normal life, to a character who was prepared to die to save the world but failed, to a character who is betrayed by his brother and loses his autonomy (S9), to a character (this season) who worries about his brother. All this without ever really getting to know how he feels about any of it. And I don't mean feelings like "anger" and "love" and "worry". It's about feelings in context to everything else. Like we are seeing with Dean. Dean's unravelling story arc is deep and full of emotion tied to his childhood and past mistakes and self esteem and sense of worth and how he feels about Sam and pretty much everything we know about him. Sam's is tied to…? *sounds of crickets*…. (I think it's tied to aa writing team and show runner that haven't quite figured out who Sam is. They prefer the plot devise, emotional catalyst (for Dean) and enigma).

And maybe that's deliberate. I think we're heading for S4 Sam soon (as we've already had S1, S2 and currently S3 Sam) and I'm not at all feeling confident that we'll get the corresponding emotion we got back then. We currently have S3 Sam - worrying about Dean and trying all he can to save him. But at least we had Mystery Spot back then to give us great insight into Sam's sense of helplessness.

Is there light at the end of this tunnel? Perhaps I should just be satisfied with "good brother" Sam. And boy am I going to love it when he turns "dark side" and completely wipes out any progress he's ever made as a character. Or maybe I'm jumping the gun. If Sam actually manages to save Dean without compromising his character I'll stand corrected on all of this (though if they want to give us dark!Sam and dark!Dean together and really go there, I'll go along for the ride).

(dammit. It's late. I'll post this anyway. I'm sure there's a million typos…)

Comments

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

You know, i haven't been this confused about the show since 7X17. I'm not going to leave deep thoughts here because that's never my forte. I just want to get this off my chest.

When I post comments under people's reviews of S8,9,10 episodes, the thing I said most was how much I loved Sam's hair. There has been things they could work with Sam's storyline, like the loss and regain of autonomy, but the show always derailed for no reason, leaving fragmented and twisted interpretation of situations. Yeah we can say the show's from Dean's perspective, but they should at least let other characters point it out.

Apart from downplaying the negative things Sam has been going through, they kinda take away the active things Sam could do as well. In the past, Sam was beaten and choked a lot, but he always got up and showed the attackers they shouldn't have messed with a Winchester. Now Sam's playing the damsel in distress so loyally I can't. Would it kill the writers if they let Sam throw a few punches before getting thrown to a wall?

And recently I feel like Sam has become a bystander instead of part of the story. I'm just not ready for Sam's transition from a main character to a ... minor character. People may dislike S4 Sam because he plays against Dean and messes things up, despite his good intentions. But that uncertainty is what gives S4 tension and suspense. I think the show is half less interesting when Sam's silenced.

i'm not positive that Sam's story would pick up in the latter half of the season because there's still Metatron. There's Crowley and Rowena and angels and demons I don't give a rat's ass about because I'm too upset with Sam's silence.

Thank you for this post. I really need it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun. I kept resisting posting something about this - but then I gave into the need to get it of my chest (and with your encouragement on the other post…).

I often think as 7.17 one of the turning points in the way they treat Sam. They killed dead a major story arc - they were heading toward (what seemed like) a solid resolution to his time in the pit and then bam! One touch from Cas and the hallucinations are gone and Sam is suddenly all better. It's pretty much what they've been doing with Sam since. Set up a story line and then resolve it in a way that doesn't actually resolve much at all. It's so very frustrating.

But yeah, I think Sam is now a minor character. I met with a friend tonight who suggested that maybe if I start to accept Sam as a secondary character it will make it easier. Truth is, it might. I keep trying to accept that it's the way it is - it's bloody hard - but after nearly three years of this maybe I just have to.

xx

[ayane42.livejournal.com]

yes, i get frustrated with the seeming lack of direction.

like you said, season 8 premiere. sam doesn't look for his brother. ok, i can dig that. did sam think dean was dead? did sam look for him? try a spell to raise him or find him? no. and there wasn't a sufficient explanation for me. and that was in the back of my mind until sam started the trials. but then the grand canyon mistake, grrrr. that threw me right out of it and i started grumbling more.

i think it was you ash that pointed out that the first part of season 8, with the flashbacks and the hotels and clothing choices i was thinking, hoping that sam was being manipulated by naomi, or something that had him all fucked up and that's why he didn't look for dean. or amelia was a demon, but something substantial that explained why sam just left and didn't look for dean.

but yeah, i still love this show despite it's many goofs and bad writing and forgetting where dean and sam came from.

i feel your pain!!

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I haven't particularly liked EITHER Sam or Dean since Carver took over. I'm all for Dean having the mytharc and for Sam to be the supporting, helpful brother. But they need to give both characters' their voices, not turn them both into opaque, 'on the surface' annoying whiny characters - which is the way they appear at first glance

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

You know I'm a dyed in the wool Dean!Girl but I still maintain Dean is only half a person without Sam - and as far as I'm concerned, Sam's been largely missing since the beginning of Season 7. We've had a bunch of versions of Sam, and Jared's had some of fun with those, but we haven't had any character development for Sam Winchester, Dean Winchester's little brother and sole focus of Dean's life.

So though I'm enjoying this season, and (mostly) enjoying Dean's story arc, it's lacking the depth and power of seasons 1-6 because Sam isn't part of this story. Like chomaisky says, he's a bystander, an observer. He chips in with a strong shoulder every now and then, but basically, he's conspicuous by his absence and I really don't like that.

Throwing in the odd hug, the concerned looks, the occasional eye-roll and bitchface just isn't enough. To be honest, I have no idea what a newcomer to the show is getting out of their relationship, because if I wasn't so solidly grounded in what has happened in the past, and all the things they have been through together (good and bad, as brothers and as rivals and as two people who love each other so much they'd die for each other), then I can't think I'd get hooked today.

As it is, I'm invested and have to see it through whatever happens, but I miss my boys and want them back.

[stormcloude]

Well said.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I am all for Dean getting the mytharc. It is about time. But I still want it to be about 2 brothers, not just one. We have so much telly with one POV already. I want them to show Sam and Dean in all their flawed glory. They are both characters that can inspire. For example, I'm rather short and weedy but I could help fight evil with research like pre-teen Sam. I want to see Dean in all his beautiful, brave, idiotic splendour, the way only a brother could see him. And Sam, his desperation to harness everything for the higher purpose, even if he is struggling with its source

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I've never understood Dean, but I've wanted to, because Sam loves him.

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm loving alot about this Season, but I remain frustrated too with the lack of Sam pov. I love how he's being now, but I'd love even more to hear *why* he's being the way he is. How did he come to it, come to terms with so much in the past? What connections is he making to his own struggles, seeing what Dean is going through now? How is that helping him empathize, which he clearly does? But that's Jared silently showing it in an expression, a gesture. I need to SEE and HEAR more. What I love about Dean (and oh boy, do I love Dean) is the way he loves Sam. In order for that to be compelling, I have to know who Sam is too.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

And it isn't like they don't have a mechanism to do this - they could easily have Cas being Sam's confidante for real, rather than just implying a conversation like they did right at the end of this last episode. We could have had one or two conversations sitting on park benches between these two - the ones who love Dean best - and allowed a) some nice bonding between the characters b) insight into both their motivations and how they see Dean and c) a better reason for keeping Castiel's character around than any stupid angel politics could give us.

[fufaraw]

Thanks so much for this. I appreciate both the space and the commentary. I've not really been able to articulate my frustration and disappointment with what seems the deliberate disuse of Sam as an agent of story in recent seasons, so reading others' articulate just that helps me organize my own thoughts and opinions.

I think at core, it's a complete misunderstanding of who Sam is, and a reluctance to veer their focus from 'the Hero' of the story, who isn't Sam, as we were led to believe in S1, but Dean. I have no problem regarding the characters *both* as heroes, it seems to me that villains and obstacles should come from outside that relationship, that the characters should reinforce each other, combine to cover each other's weak points and give space for each one's strong points to shine. But that seems too much for the writers to manage. Peril and chaos and strife, either real-world or other-world, seems beyond their imagination, so they sabotage one brother or the other--but usually Sam--to provide the angst, the strife, the impending doom threatening to strike down the heroes, or their world, or both.

Which seems to me a deep misunderstanding of the mythos, and lazy writing.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for this. I appreciate both the space and the commentary

:D It feels more and more lately that it's hard to talk about this stuff without being shouted down (or de-friended or un followed). Sometimes just talking about it helps.

it seems to me that villains and obstacles should come from outside that relationship, that the characters should reinforce each other, combine to cover each other's weak points and give space for each one's strong points to shine.

Oh god! From your fingers to the writers' ears. Wouldn't that be amazing? That they actually stop all this crap about who's more the hero and who is going to save who (whom?) and just work at strengthening their relationship so they can work together.

I know the show has always been about the "strife" between them and how they seem to overcome it to conquer the evil in the world, but after 10 seasons it just gets so hard to keep seeing. There have been times (last season) where I actually felt like they should separate forever. They just seemed to hate each other so much.

With any luck we'll start to see some sort of healing between them - though I've been saying that for years now…;)

[stormcloude]

I wish I could erase the Carver years off the map.

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

You know, people bitch so much about seasons 6 & 7, but I enjoyed those miles more than almost everything that has come after. Because I recognized those characters. Because their past had consequences and influenced the logical progression of their characters. Because plot actions were consequences of characterization and characters reacting to events, not the reverse, where characters are rewritten and reset to serve the plot, even if that plot flies in the face of what has come before.

Other than the Men of Letters (and the trials, for selfish h/c loving reasons), I could happily rewind it all and let Sera keep going. At least what she did felt like SPN to me.

[heliokleia.livejournal.com]

"We currently have S3 Sam - worrying about Dean and trying all he can to save him. But at least we had Mystery Spot back then to give us great insight into Sam's sense of helplessness."
- And isn't it ironic, 'Mystery Spot' was written by Carver himself!!
*lolz*

Well, you know I'm a little bit more Dean!girl, but just a little bit...
- But I'm with you here, sweetie, after the first three episodes of s10 I really had hope that Carver and his new staff of *coughs* writers got it finally, after two seasons of partly horrible SAM-writing.

Trust me, you're not the only one who's waiting and waiting and waiting for some Sam POV, more Sam kicking ass gain - and more Sam in action in general.
*nods firmly*

Good, like Jared himself, I appreciate the s10 Sam so much more than the s08-09 version and am glad that the brothers are talking again to each other [Winchester style, of course] and that they have each other's backs again, but moi too, dislikes that Carver & co are now showing us nothing but Princess Samantha, the Damsel in Distress in the second half of the season, that far.
Not cool.

In my eyes, both Hotties are equal, both have their good times and also their bad times. And in the Good Old Times, Show gave us both and all fangurls were happy.

*sighs* I really don't know what's wrong with Carver and his *coughs* new writers, since he came back.
- But I'm sure, if Kim Manners would still be around, [bad] things like that what you're writing about above, wouldn'd have happened.

So thank you for sharing your thoughts, honey and let's hope for a silver lining somehow...
- And in the meantime, I'm making the best of it - and just watch the double hottielicious eyecandy, if the writing is going totally underground again... ;)
*winks & waves*

P.S. Typos? - What typos? *g*

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

if Kim Manners would still be around, [bad] things like that what you're writing about above, wouldn'd have happened.

BINGO!!

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

The thing that gets me is that Sam has always been supportive of Dean. Always. This is something that Sam has always done throughout the seasons. But he wasn't without a voice and he had his own opinion and thoughts.

However, people act as if this is something new and are jumping for joy like 'yes Dean needs someone to tell him he's worth something!!!!!' but Dean has always had someone say that, not just Sam. From side characters to angels etc.

Dean's issue is he doesn't believe that himself, not that he was without support (like Sam in some instances)

It's just aggravating on a whole new level to me. We either have to get Sam being 100% complacent and silent and lose his personality and opinions, or we get a Sam who everyone calls a selfish, whiny bitch who is ungrateful because he is voicing his opinion.

It's like two extremes and I can't fathom a reason the show can't merge Sam into one. Why can't Sam be supportive and still have his own opinion? His own fire etc. Just because Dean is dealing with the mark doesn't mean that he needs to be cuddled and babied. They still have a lot of issues like you mentioned that have not gone resolved, and I'm beginning to worry that the writers assume that Sam bringing any of this up would be a low blow or too harsh for Dean right now.

It just makes me want to rip my hair out sometimes.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And Sam used to call Dean on his bullshit. So did other characters who are all dead now. Actually that's a good way to add complexity to the plot and presenting multiple perspectives, and I don't know why the writers stop doing that with the tons of characters we have now in favour of doing lame ass gang stories.

[zara-zee.livejournal.com]

I know WE can make up those reasons (and there's a bucket load of them!) but I want the SHOW to do that. Show us that because Sam has been "other" that he understands what Dean is experiencing. Show us that Dean knows that's why Sam is so strong. Show us that Sam has a deep understanding of what it's like to carrying "evil" within his veins and that's why he's so good at this.

This articulates my feelings perfectly! I LOVE supportive, caring, understanding Sam, but I want Show to give us more of his emotions and perspective, because there is a depth to his understanding of Dean's current situation; he's been there; it's not just, 'oh I'm a nice guy with nice hair who's being nice'.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* And you know, it dawned on me also that Dean has been through what Sam is currently going through. Seeing his brother changing and being "other". It would also be great to see Dean show some understanding toward Sam - maybe even just a "how you doing? I know what it's like feeling helpless...". Perhaps it just doesn't need to be said, but there are times I want to see those parallels played out.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Don't click if show crit concerns you. Please. I want to be able to say some stuff and invite others to do so if they want to, without retribution.

LOL, I think I'm gonna start posting that particular disclaimer in my neck of the woods. Ash, you know exactly whereof I speak, I betcha. :)

Show's utter disregard for anything that has gone before for Sam.

Even us Dean girls have noticed that, bb -- and yes, I miss brainy!badass!Sam, too. Once upon a time, Sam was a scarily intelligent, clever, ass-kicking Winchester who actually had *gasp* thoughts of his own. But we lost him, and this began long before the FUBAR'ed mess of S8. I'll probably get crap for this, but I really think the marginalization of Sam began as far back as S6, when more and more time was devoted to boring angel politics and Castiel rather than Sam and Dean. Then came Kevin and Mrs. Tran and others who took over the "smart problem-solver" role that Sam used to have. I don't even know what to say about how, these days, Sam is almost immediately thrown into walls and knocked silly before he has the chance to be his lethal Winchester self. :(

HOWEVER. I'm fairly confident (or is that "hopeful"?) that as the season advances, we'll get the pared-down, ruthless and scarily focused "Mystery Spot" Sam as he tries to solve the issue of the MoC.

. . . I hope.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

HOWEVER. I'm fairly confident (or is that "hopeful"?) that as the season advances, we'll get the pared-down, ruthless and scarily focused "Mystery Spot" Sam as he tries to solve the issue of the MoC.
That'd be weird, you know. Like, what have you been doing earlier? You know if you had done something, had tried to find another way, Dean wouldn't have been in this bad spot in the first place, or at least we know you tried.
The story telling is already truly fucked, nothing they do in the latter half of the season can salvage this. I'm sorry but I'm depressed.
<333

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I has driven me crazy that Sam has so little to do. Disclaimer: this semi-opinion might be unpopular. Call it an uneducated guess.

Sometimes I wonder if Jared just wants to do the least amount possible at this point. Imagine how much less time it takes to shoot his scenes if all he has to do is stand around in the background.

From what I've seen of con footage, Jared is a big ole diva (all actors are, and he's a sweetie pie), but it doesn't seem like he cares that much. Conventions, spending time with his family, I think those are more important to him. Actually, the conventions are probably a studio contractual thing, but do they have to do so many of them--?

Just tossing it out there.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I've seen this brought up before. My understanding is the ONLY thing Jared has asked for is that his shooting days be arranged so he can have weekends so he can go home to his family. So if they only have written three days worth of shooting for Sam's character, he has requested that those days be shot Tues, Weds and Thurs. That is it as far as I know. He may want time off, but I can't imagine that he wants the days he has to spend away from his family to be filled with standing around, having no character development and not having any real acting to do. Jared always has said he loved stretching his acting muscles by playing the various facets of Sam. Even if he wants a light work load, I would think he would want a satisfying and fulfilling workload when he's there. When Sam has had actual lines and something to play, he hasn't slacked off that I can see.

I don't know what is going on. But I really think it's more the writers have no clue how to write for Sam. I know that at conventions before the season started, Jared said he talked to the writers and he wanted Sam to be the one to save Dean. Then when the time came, Dean broke out and Sam had to be saved by Cas. Then Dean's cure continued OFF SCREEN so we never saw Sam cure Dean, only that Dean got cured and Sam was a big old dope who couldn't even keep Dean confined long enough to be cured. Jared may just be discouraged that Sam didn't get a complete win. He may be a diva, but he isn't big on complaining. The only time he ever criticized a storyline was Amelia. I really think it's the writers.

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

LJ ate my first snarky comment so here is a more reasonable note. I think for whatever reason, the show has abandoned the more complex characterizations of the early seasons. Instead, especially with the Carver years, they've focused on the plot and the characters have been molded as the plot required. That means that a lot of the nuance we had has been lost as the characters have become more two dimensional. What's left is the surface stuff for each character and they've leaned more on character tropes rather than using the characters that Sam and Dean were becoming. They have entirely ignored any character growth made by the boys. Dean has always had more outwardly defining behaviors and he was originally created more along the lines of a stereotype to begin with so there's more outwardly recognizable left now and I think they had a better grip on who they thought he was. Sam was a much more complex character to begin with and I don't think the show knows how to squash out the nuance and complexity and still give us what is essentially Sam. So much of what had happened to Sam went on in his head too. I think this season, they need good!Sam right now but they don't really know what that looks like other than research, riding shotgun, and eating salad. Because they haven't really got a grip on who Sam is and they are so busy trying to make their season arcs work, they've had Sam do some really OCC things in the last couple of seasons. That's fine if you can sell it but they never made it believable. Plot lines have come and been dropped, canon has been ignored, continuity stinks. They've had all the characters acting beyond dumb at points either to make a plot work or for laughs.

I really hope I'm wrong but I have a really bad feeling about where this is all going because Sam's last comment was that 'Dean's in trouble'. That's after we find out that the Mark is driving Dean toward fratricide. Sam, you're in trouble. This is all shaping up to be another chapter in the domestic violence that is the recent Sam and Dean dynamic. They can have Dean beat on Sam but hide behind 'the Mark made him do it'. With the way things go, the cynical part of me thinks they'll find a way to make that Sam's fault too. Blame the vic for his own abuse. Then they'll have Sam go dark or make the ultimate sacrifice because heaven forbid Dean clean up his own mess. Bah. I hope I'm wrong. I wish I trusted them more but I've been emotionally burned to a crisp.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

for whatever reason, the show has abandoned the more complex characterizations of the early seasons. Instead, especially with the Carver years, they've focused on the plot and the characters have been molded as the plot required. That means that a lot of the nuance we had has been lost as the characters have become more two dimensional.

Spot-on. In the earlier seasons, Kripke was showrunner, and if anyone knew Sam and Dean's characters and motivations, it was he. But also, in the early days, some of TPTB were ex-X-Files people -- Kim Manners and John Shiban -- folks who already KNEW how to make a good show. Shiban moved on, Manners passed away, everyone left suddenly got an angel boner and forgot about the brotherly heart of the show, and . . . well, here we are. :(

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I am so frustrated by the lack of Sam development really since Carver took over. I could accept that Sam believed Dean was dead and so didn't look for him after season seven. But the complete and total refusal of the writing staff to even attempt to show him immediately after Dick Roman blew up gave us no context as to his decision. One of the few episodes where we heard that he never felt clean was the same episode that totally contradicted canon by telling us that Sam and Dean went to the Grand Canyon when they were kids. When Sam realized he might die completing the trials we never got to see one human feeling about that. We saw Dean angsting that Sam might die, but Sam, well God Forbid Sam have any feeling about probably dying.

Then came season nine. Fans actually agreed that what Dean did in tricking Sam was awful. As soon as Sam found out, his voice was silenced. He wasn't allowed to talk about feeling violated. He wasn't allowed more than one sentence about how it felt to kill Kevin. He wasn't allowed any reflection on what happened to him. If he had it might have taken away from Dean's endless manpain and Dean's manpain is the most important thing ever.

This season Sam is just disappearing into the woodwork. On Spoiler TV the write a Gripe Review. The reviewer actually liked this episode because Dean got to play his proper role "the Hero", Cas get to play his proper role "The Rock" (for Dean to lean on) and Sam gets to play his proper role "The Believer", who does absolutely nothing other than adore Dean and prop Dean's ego. I HATE that view, but I do think that is what the show has decided, that Sam must only support Dean. He must never have an opinion of his own. And if he does act as an independent human being he must be slapped down and proven to be wrong and evil.

My big fear is that they are moving toward making Sam wrong again. That Dean, branded with the MOC will be a better more decent person than Sam and Sam will have to be taught a lesson on being a good person and a good brother. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Damn, I hate those so-called "proper roles"... blech.

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: I still love the show. I love Dean. I love these characters. Wanting more for a character I adore isn't me hating on the show for no reason.

*Seethes quietly in the corner* Ash, honey, you should not have to put this as a disclaimer on your own freaking journal! *ahem*

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

I totally agree that she shouldn't HAVE to . . . but with some folks, any opinions differing from their own are construed as "hating" on Show. (You saw what happened in a similar discussion on my own LJ.) Pretty sure Ash is just trying to head those types off at the pass. So to speak. ;)

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

As a newcomer to the show I'm so grateful for this discussion! Now I understand why I felt so betrayed about the Grand Canyon gaff -- how could the writers and J2 not remember that pivotal scene in S2? I pretty much accepted Sam not looking for Dean after S7 bc of their old agreement to go on with their lives if one of them disappeared (and that was going so well we had Amelia's dad pointing out that Sam was obviously PTSD, and I figured he hit the dog bc he was driving drunk or at least sleepless and grieving). I'm one of the lame-ass fans who love Sam being supportive to Dean, and I totally believe he has a serious talk with Cas after the screen goes black at the end of this ep. I love the idea that he's had some earlier heart-to-hearts with Cas this season, on park benches or otherwise, just off-screen. But more than anything, we need a Sam-centric episode this season. We could have Mystery Spot for S10 and it would be totally awesome and long overdue!

:::running off to write this:::

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

A Sam-centric episode... *wistful sigh*

[shang-yiet.livejournal.com]

I'm drinking from the same cup of bitterness. I complained about it recently but was told I was just wanted Sam to be special and not Dean. Just jealous, you know, about Dean getting the mytharc. And it's not that at all.
Dean does get so many emotional notes that take him from A to D to F but Sam is stuck on C C C C (for concerned). That's boring for me.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I complained about it recently but was told I was just wanted Sam to be special and not Dean. Just jealous, you know, about Dean getting the myth arc.

I am seeing his too. It's driving me nuts. I actually thought that maybe this is what Dean!girls were feeling when Sam had the myth arc. But I was informed that when Sam had the myth arc Dean also had a story. This time Dean has the myth arc AND the story - so it's very different.

Dean does get so many emotional notes that take him from A to D to F but Sam is stuck on C C C C (for concerned). That's boring for me.

Nicely put! ) Hard to find a place to vent and not be told you're complaining because you're jealous..

And hi. Thanks for dropping by. :)

[aletheiafelinea.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don't think you've write anything very controversial. I agree with basically everything, and I don't have much to add. But then again, I've never really been a Sam!girl. I certainly prefer the caring and supporting Sam over the distant and pouty Sam any time (ugh, I hate those cold wars of theirs), but I admit Sam is currently just... boring. He's just there, with not much to do. He's more of a background than a character right now.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Well, the controversy is the act of complaining. Some don't like it when fans do it, so I warned for it. I've been unfollowed and de-friended for being critical in some places so yeah, it's controversial.

I certainly prefer the caring and supporting Sam over the distant and pouty Sam any time

Yeah. This is one of my bug bears. Sam being upset or angry because of something Dean has done to him is seen as him being pouty and distant - which is true. Instead of giving Sam actual words to express his hurt they make him silent (and therefore pouty) while Dean gets to be angsty and hurt. I much prefer them not being like that, but not to the expense of Sam not being allowed to feel anything. But I know I have to accept it. As they can't actually show us a sympathetic Sam (which they should have totally done last season) they are probably better giving us a silent supportive Sam. He is definitely more acceptable.

But yeah, boring too. I sometimes see Sam as not being able to catch a break. He's either voicing an opinion and being hated, not voicing anything and being hated or blending into the background and being boring…;) Perhaps some kickass, intelligent, caring, supportive, mindful, thoughtful Sam would be a good alternative. Which I know we do see some of at times. :))

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

Sam who? Sam is now a pretty pretty lamp who has no feelings whatsoever, he's just there to be pretty. i now accept that Sam is non-existent, can have anything done to him without any pov about how its affected him, gets blamed for something that was not on him, the only time he says something, he's wrong for feeling that way and hurt Dean's feelings with his words. Dean can do what ever the hell he wants to Sam, get away with it, and be awesome? :(. I am currently keeping track of Sam's unconsciousness since S9 and i add to it whenever he 's out unconscious in each episode;14 eps so far. Sam is being erased from this show it feels like it to me, and Dean is the only character in this show. this series is told from Dean's pov, Dean gets everything, the pov, mytharc, and man pain--angst, Sam-he gets erased from the show that's supposed to be about both of them when the show is clearly about Dean now. this is not what the series is about. who the hell cares about what Sam thinks, how he feels, his pov when you can get it from Dean and Dean only? this show is betraying the whole premise of what the show is all about and it, its frustrating, makes no sense, and i dont understand why this show is now about 1 brother instead of 2. this series is being turned into a lie why? im loyal, i will watch til the end, i want to know how this series ends. i gave up on Sam ever getting anything from this point on.i love both Sam and Dean but Sam is being erased. Sam who? he's just a pretty lamp. thank you for this post.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey,

I'm hearing ya hun. Solidarity! <3

And really? You've done a tally? 14 unconscious moments since S9? How does that compare to Dean I wonder…

And Sam has had some solid myth arc moments. The trials and even Gadreel possession (even though we never got to find out how that affected him). Sam has often carried the plot - just not the perspective on that. Well, not for a while. The last solid Sam centric ep was probably in S8 (The Great Escapist) and maybe some snippets during S8. After that, there's been nothing…

Perhaps there will be a turn around in the second half…:)

*hopes*

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the other replies yet, so I imagine I'll have more to say after then!

Re. loving this season's Sam, well, it's either that or sink into despair for his character, and I'm not quite ready to do that yet. It's what we've got. I still care about the characters so I'd better find a way to tolerate how Carver is steering the show. At least it's better than the character assassination they gave us in Eight and Nine...which I get why they did it. They had to build an environment where Dean was so miserable, he would be driven to take the Mark. But there again, Sam was little more than a plot device, albeit Dean's favorite plot device.

I totally agree with you on how Dean getting his hallowed myth arc is different than the way Sam got his. Dean was always explored, even if Sam had the 'magic' happening to him. Sadly, not so much in reverse. We're told Sam went to desperate lengths to track Dean down at the beginning of the season. He tortured a demon. Woo. Mostly, we have to accept Sam at scant face value; we have little more to go on. On its basest level, Sam's character arc since Carver took the helm is "I wanted out, now I don't." Do we even know why? Not really. We can surmise that it's because Dean won't get out and Sam will follow Dean anywhere. But this is only a guess, and seems way too cheap and easy, too surface. What does this say about Sam? Who the hell knows. Does Sam even know? These are things the writers have to ask (and answer) themselves before the character can act on it. Pretty sure the writers have no clue, or at least not one that they share.

Sam is simply being responsive to everything Dean is doing, or has done to Sam. He feels like a passenger, while Dean is still driving the bus. This I lay squarely at Carver's feet. We had the thoroughly anti-climactic curing of Dean, and that's it.

BUT! Here's something I heard on the podcast Supernatural: The Crossroad, and it's an interesting spin. The podcast is three guys, all of whom are really dedicated to the show and pragmatic about the characters. They were musing about Sam too, and admitted that Dean was the snappy one, the one everyone wants to be. But Sam, as it turns out, is the strong one. He's the one, after all he's been through, that has his shit together. He's the tower of strength that Dean needs, the voice of reason. Which is great! But he also needs to be a participant in his own life, in an interesting way that makes for exciting TV, not just the odd phone call to Cas or using his google-fu. (I actually think Halt and Catch Fire tiptoed in the right direction with this.)

I also think that while the writers should in no way give fans what they want--that is, spoon-feed us our specific desires as fan-service--I do think they pick up on vibes and fandom zeitgeist. Arguably, Sam's part in the main plot has gotten marginally better, IMHO. There has been less direct Dean/Cas interaction. Happenstance or direct influence? Who knows. But it manages to tickle me with hope.

So! We shall see! I love that we can discuss this here, Ash. We Sam fans need to frolick! Even if it's angsty frolicking. This is our safe place. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi honey. Thanks for your thinky.

Sam being the "strong one" is probably one of my fave things about him at the moment. I know that my complaining makes it seem that there's nothing I like about what's going on with Sam this season. I actually really like it, in terms of seeing that Sam can pretty much survive anything and still remain strong and hopeful. I think WE have to connect the dots - I'd bet money that TPTB didn;t sit down and say "let's show how strong Sam is because of everything he's been through". It's definitely just "ok, we've had "I won't look for you or save you" Sam, so let's now have "I'll do anything and everything I can to save you". This total turn around without us seeing anything that's gone on in his head that took him there.

I keep coming back to knowing (for myself) that it's simply that we got those 2 versions of Sam last 2 seasons and now we have this one without a bridging story. I keep hoping for those few sentences that tie it all together.

Still. I know this season is a hundred times better, and more in character, for Sam than the last 2 (though, I think there was a lot in character for Sam last season only he wasn't allowed to speak so we never got to understand him or his reasons for feeling the way he did).

It's either that or sink into despair for his character, and I'm not quite ready to do that yet.

Me neither! And I think it's why I make these posts. I helps to chat and I usually end up feeling more hopeful. :D
*hugs*

[lavinialavender.livejournal.com]

I am with you ALL THE WAY, and especially this:

I know WE can make up those reasons (and there's a bucket load of them!) but I want the SHOW to do that. Show us that because Sam has been "other" that he understands what Dean is experiencing. Show us that Dean knows that's why Sam is so strong. Show us that Sam has a deep understanding of what it's like to carrying "evil" within his veins and that's why he's so good at this. Show us that Sam has beaten this and that's why he knows Dean can. Remind us that Dean actually locked Sam up when Sam was fighting his demons - and beat the crap out of him when he found out he lost his soul. In all honesty, I don't think they even remember what Sam has ever been through.
YES. It is so freaking sad.

And please don't think that those creepy, alarming people who think Sam is best when he's silent and supportive, represent ALL of fandom. I strongly, strongly disagree. Perhaps the issue now is that those who can't stomach this version of Sam have (like me) stopped watching? It's the only way I can preserve the Sam who once existed as a full-fleshed character.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

*fist bump* NO SILENCE FOR SAM. There's a t-shirt in there...

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Late again, as usual!

Carver has changed, and to my mind damaged, these characters on such a fundamental level. As I've said to you before, he opened up this huge can of worms in seasons 8 and 9 and yet has never taken any of the opportunities to actually rebuild anything or even use those issues to reflect on this season. Another switch seems to have been flipped that's wiped out season 8 and 9 issues and it's just not working for me.

It should, these past few episodes have had all the ingredients for some excellent heart breaking scenes. But for me, because of what Carver has done and not cleaned up, I just can't get behind either Winchester, they're shallow, watered down shadows of themselves, merely pawns on their own chessboards.

And you know me, I love a big brother, supportive Sam, but this isn't what we're getting is it? Where is Sam's fire? That anger and determination WE know he has, this passive deferential Sam is not reacting to anything, I expect someone will come in soon and tell me it's because Dean's damaged him so much he still can't function, but until show actually states this I'm not swallowing it.

As you say, he's had Lucifer in his head, so every speech that states "You can save yourself Dean" is just falling on barren grounds of lost opportunities to rebuild, where are the "I'll be your stone number one", the "I'll help you as you helped me, I know what this is, trust in me" speeches?

Deep, deep down, I'm still in the 8x01 shock, where Sam will only ever be happy when Dean is truly dead and gone and because their relationship has had two toxic years it's still killing me. This by-passing of a main character to actually be active in his own life, to rage against the MOC and what it's done to his brother is another on the list of Carver's greatest sins, a long, long list. They're writing Sam as just coasting on the fringes of his life not living, we don't know what he wants, or why he's there, is he determined to save his brother, or determined to end this fight and go away to find a life he wants elsewhere. How will we ever know if someone isn't actually talking to him? I'm tired of guessing, if I'm not careful and think too hard, it's too easy to see a Sam that's given up.

I used to think all those issues of lying, manipulation and differing paths were actually going somewhere, but the only place this is going right now is Sam sitting on the side lines while once again his life is ruled by others and it's just not good enough. I don't know any longer where they're going except down the Cain and Abel rabbit hole and right now there's not the slightest chance in hell Sam is going to win against MOC Dean, so I suppose Dean will over come his murderous rage all on his own again because that's what Sam's telling him. So, Sam doesn't save Dean, Dean saves Dean, sounds about right for Carver. It isn't good enough for a series that's about TWO brothers.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

But for me, because of what Carver has done and not cleaned up, I just can't get behind either Winchester, they're shallow, watered down shadows of themselves, merely pawns on their own chessboards.

*nods in sad agreement*

1/2

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

I have a few different thoughts about this, some specifically about Sam, and some about the show as a whole.

As your post is about Sam, I'll start there. I agree with you. I'm enjoying Dean's arc, and the way it seems to be finally getting to grips with the legacy of damage John left behind. But I'd enjoy it a lot more if we got to see Sam also having to engage with it. My hope, actually, is that once Dean hits Big Revelation time, when we find out the central, secret driver that has convinced Dean he's "not worth saving", we will get a corresponding focus on Sam and what drives him. Dean's driver and Sam's central philosophy have to be interrelated -- Dean was Sam's buffer during childhood in some ways, but that doesn't mean Sam wasn't just as affected, even if the shape is different. There's a reason these two are co-dependent, and why that hasn't been healthy. So I'm hoping that it's like dominoes. Once Dean tips over and can't keep himself secret anymore, Sam is revealed too, and gets some of the spotlight.

That said, even if it does work that way, it would have been nice to have more of Sam's perspective leading up to it. Not to mention, that's my best case scenario reading, and Supernatural isn't always great at following through on arcs.

So, yes, I agree with you.

Moving on from Sam, for what it's worth, I have a piece of advice. Do with it as you will. :)

One of the reasons I didn't watch s9 (or much of s6 and s7), is because Supernatural is inconstant. What I mean by that is that it 'teases', which I've explained more below. It makes textual promises, draws you in, and then doesn't fulfill them.

So sometimes, I need to step back and let it go for a bit, especially if the arcs might be triggering. It's about self-protection, and it's not just Supernatural I do it with.

Maybe it's time for you to take a break, so you can come back to it fresh later on. I suggest this to you as a positive thing. I don't think it makes anyone a bad fan to sometimes take a step back. In my case, it makes me a cautious one, who doesn't easily trust my heart to corporate storytellers, because, let's face it, they are mostly a bunch of privileged white men, and are not always careful about the story they tell. I've found when I return after a break, I usually enjoy it more.

2/2

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

About the 'tease'. I know you don't really see the queer reading of the text, and that's okay -- the text is in part what we bring to it, as well as what is there to be taken. I bring this up because the threads of a queer narrative have been pretty clear to me for quite a few seasons (and I say that not primarily as a fan, but as someone with a PhD in storytelling), and I do think there is a deliberateness about them which is designed to reel in an audience, and that calculatedness is separate to any plans to actually pay off that arc (the show's history says it's unlikely, even though Dean's arc has never been more saturated with romantic and queer tropes). My point! This show is a tease, and it's a deliberate marketing strategy. It gives fans a taste of things they want, and then doesn't pay it off, but never closes off the possibility. It's really effective, which is why the show is still on air. It's a lot of other things too, of course, including all the things you and I love about it. It's both of those things at the same time -- an engaging story, and tease-based marketing strategy.

I've only seen the first three eps of s10 so far, but my impression is that it's Sam's arc that's moved into the 'tease' role. With the overt queer narrative Crowley's bringing to the text, and the way so much of Dean's journey is also being coded as more overtly queer, the show is really pushing that hook hard right now. So it's almost like Sam's arc is the other side of the see-saw, and it's the one that's dropped to the more subtextual level. I want Dean to have his queer awakening, *and* have his relationship with Sam be healthy -- but heaven forbid we get both story arcs being developed at the same time!

Whether or not you agree with my speculations about the 'tease' in relation to Sam, I'm really glad you're only experiencing this sense of unfulfilment for the first time now, and I wish you weren't at all. I wish you'd never learned about this part of the show. But I can tell you, what you're experiencing now, and the way you've worded it sounds a lot like the posts I read in which people complain about being queerbaited.

I don't know if that way of thinking about it is helpful. I found it to be, which is why I've laid it out here. Periodically reminding myself that the show is a business, and that they have these strategies in place to keep people watching helps me keep that bit of protective distance. I can still enjoy the story, but more on my own terms, and it doesn't get so frustrating when the arcs don't pay off.

[justayooper.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this, as it lets me know I am not alone feeling this way about SPN, to the point that I have even stopped DVRing it. When most everyone was celebrating about Carver taking Gamble's place, I got a sinking feeling in my gut and didn't know why. Now I know, and sometimes it sucks to be right. She got Sam, understood him and what he has been through and how much Dean means to him. I think Carver is about as deep as a mud puddle, along with his merry band of hack writers and they are choosing to forget Kripke's reign in order to create their new universe that Sam doesn't seem to be a part of. Even though I have stopped watching and have been trying to pull myself away from the show completely (I still read reviews and like to look at the pretty pictures), there is that hope that things will change for Sam and we will get to see more of this strong, complex underdog. Unfortunately, too many fans don't seem to care about him beyond his ability to prop Dean up and support him, to the point that the Sam I know and love seems to be disintegrating piece by piece until there won't be anything left but a Sam-sized shadow. It is like he is giving away parts of himself to the other characters in the show so they can matter and he can just fade into the background.
I am sorry you feel this way, because of the sadness (and frustration, bitterness and anger) it brings and you have always tried to be so positive. I am trying to replace the interest I have in SPN with other shows, and it is so hard!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey. I am sorry to hear you're feeling the same way too. It's a bloody awful feeling.

I think Carver is about as deep as a mud puddle,

Haha. I have to say, that did make me laugh. I have to say that I can't stand him. I didn't alway feel that way. I was excited to hear he was going to be the show runner because he wrote Mystery Spot and the Xmas ep. Two excellent bro episodes. Seems they represent nothing about him after all. I'll never forgive him for what he's done for my beautiful characters.

*hugs* you sound like I feel after watching episodes that have erased Sam. Which, unfortunately, is many of them.

xx

[ellie-234.livejournal.com]

I gave up watching after season 9 it was too much for me , it was the ultimate victim blamer we did not even have one Sam centric episode . I never felt outside of the not looking debacle that Sam needed to prove his love and support of Dean but alot are getting the Sam they craved for not what I wanted but Jeremy and the writers have served him up .

I do not know what idea was from the begining ? the disregard for Sam's past and own experience,s are lazy at best and short-sighted at worst . I suppose Jeremy,s SPN is just not mine and I would be honestly surprised if the approach to Sam changed.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's the thing I worry about. I'll be surprised if the approach changes. Making Sam a victim without a voice last year was unforgivable. And then to create a victim who fans hated was a step too far. I thought they might have addressed it at some point, but it doesn't look like they will. :(

I probably should have stopped watching, but I can't. I think in my heart I need to watch in order to support Sam - or something. ;)