Sammy chat...
Feb. 22nd, 2015 12:56 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ash48Warning. Don't click if show crit concerns you. Please. I want to be able to say some stuff and invite others to do so if they want to, without retribution (not that I ever get that *hearts you all*, but I just want to warn that I want to create a space for people to chat about Show concerns). It's really about getting stuff off my chest - and yours too if you want to.
Disclaimer: I still love the show. I love Dean. I love these characters. Wanting more for a character I adore isn't me hating on the show for no reason.
I've tried so many times to write up some reasons why I'm despairing about S10 and basically Sam's lack of - well, everything: presence, storyline, emotion, hair etc. etc., but I can't seem to assemble cohesive thoughts. I have many drafts but I can't post them because I read through them and all I seem to be doing is complaining. Which is essentially what I'm doing, but I wanted to give good, sensible, compassionate reasons for why I'm complaining. And I just can't seem to. Not well anyway.
I did make one post - which I took down - which stated "Sam's storyline is fucked". I took that down because it didn't seem fair I should say that without reasons. The reason I wrote that is because after writing reams of words I came to that conclusion. And not just because we don't ever get to hear from Sam, but because his actually story-line (since S8) makes no sense.
But mostly it's the Show's utter disregard for anything that has gone before for Sam. I actually have no issue with the current supportive Sam, or protective Sam (at all!) - but I hate that they have not given us resolutions to ANYTHING that has gone before (and also make it seem as though this is a Sam we've never seen before. It's as though "Sam" started in S8 - when he decided not to look for his missing brother). We just have to accept that Sam is suddenly ok. That Sam was misguided for be angry with Dean last season and his "I lied" was his "I'm over all that" transition to this season. I am so frustrated and sad that we've not had one episode (or even a moment) that has given us any exploration of how Sam went from the last 2 seasons to this one. And as much as I love that Dean's character is being thoroughly explored and a clear story arc is emerging, I just wish they'd balance it with giving us just a little bit of Sam. I'm not asking for much, just a littlebit. A Sam that isn't merely "bad, thoughtless brother" or "silent supportive brother".
On top of that, I'm finding the fact that fandom is loving this Sam so much, disconcerting. I mean, it's so much better than "Sam should kill himself, he's an ungrateful, whiny, selfish brother who doesn't appreciate Dean" but it suggests that the "best" Sam is a silent, supportive Sam. I get that current Sam is the one we love - being there for Dean, accepting Dean for who he is, saying the right things, being a tower of strength - but he's all those things without depth or reason. I know WE can make up those reasons (and there's a bucket load of them!) but I want the SHOW to do that. Show us that because Sam has been "other" that he understands what Dean is experiencing. Show us that Dean knows that's why Sam is so strong. Show us that Sam has a deep understanding of what it's like to carrying "evil" within his veins and that's why he's so good at this. Show us that Sam has beaten this and that's why he knows Dean can. Remind us that Dean actually locked Sam up when Sam was fighting his demons - and beat the crap out of him when he found out he lost his soul. In all honesty, I don't think they even remember what Sam has ever been through.
I dunno. I wrote on twitter that it's a bad time to be a Sam!girl. It just feels like that. We've had a season where his character went back to another universe where he only wanted a normal life, to a character who was prepared to die to save the world but failed, to a character who is betrayed by his brother and loses his autonomy (S9), to a character (this season) who worries about his brother. All this without ever really getting to know how he feels about any of it. And I don't mean feelings like "anger" and "love" and "worry". It's about feelings in context to everything else. Like we are seeing with Dean. Dean's unravelling story arc is deep and full of emotion tied to his childhood and past mistakes and self esteem and sense of worth and how he feels about Sam and pretty much everything we know about him. Sam's is tied to…? *sounds of crickets*…. (I think it's tied to aa writing team and show runner that haven't quite figured out who Sam is. They prefer the plot devise, emotional catalyst (for Dean) and enigma).
And maybe that's deliberate. I think we're heading for S4 Sam soon (as we've already had S1, S2 and currently S3 Sam) and I'm not at all feeling confident that we'll get the corresponding emotion we got back then. We currently have S3 Sam - worrying about Dean and trying all he can to save him. But at least we had Mystery Spot back then to give us great insight into Sam's sense of helplessness.
Is there light at the end of this tunnel? Perhaps I should just be satisfied with "good brother" Sam. And boy am I going to love it when he turns "dark side" and completely wipes out any progress he's ever made as a character. Or maybe I'm jumping the gun. If Sam actually manages to save Dean without compromising his character I'll stand corrected on all of this (though if they want to give us dark!Sam and dark!Dean together and really go there, I'll go along for the ride).
(dammit. It's late. I'll post this anyway. I'm sure there's a million typos…)
Disclaimer: I still love the show. I love Dean. I love these characters. Wanting more for a character I adore isn't me hating on the show for no reason.
I've tried so many times to write up some reasons why I'm despairing about S10 and basically Sam's lack of - well, everything: presence, storyline, emotion, hair etc. etc., but I can't seem to assemble cohesive thoughts. I have many drafts but I can't post them because I read through them and all I seem to be doing is complaining. Which is essentially what I'm doing, but I wanted to give good, sensible, compassionate reasons for why I'm complaining. And I just can't seem to. Not well anyway.
I did make one post - which I took down - which stated "Sam's storyline is fucked". I took that down because it didn't seem fair I should say that without reasons. The reason I wrote that is because after writing reams of words I came to that conclusion. And not just because we don't ever get to hear from Sam, but because his actually story-line (since S8) makes no sense.
But mostly it's the Show's utter disregard for anything that has gone before for Sam. I actually have no issue with the current supportive Sam, or protective Sam (at all!) - but I hate that they have not given us resolutions to ANYTHING that has gone before (and also make it seem as though this is a Sam we've never seen before. It's as though "Sam" started in S8 - when he decided not to look for his missing brother). We just have to accept that Sam is suddenly ok. That Sam was misguided for be angry with Dean last season and his "I lied" was his "I'm over all that" transition to this season. I am so frustrated and sad that we've not had one episode (or even a moment) that has given us any exploration of how Sam went from the last 2 seasons to this one. And as much as I love that Dean's character is being thoroughly explored and a clear story arc is emerging, I just wish they'd balance it with giving us just a little bit of Sam. I'm not asking for much, just a littlebit. A Sam that isn't merely "bad, thoughtless brother" or "silent supportive brother".
On top of that, I'm finding the fact that fandom is loving this Sam so much, disconcerting. I mean, it's so much better than "Sam should kill himself, he's an ungrateful, whiny, selfish brother who doesn't appreciate Dean" but it suggests that the "best" Sam is a silent, supportive Sam. I get that current Sam is the one we love - being there for Dean, accepting Dean for who he is, saying the right things, being a tower of strength - but he's all those things without depth or reason. I know WE can make up those reasons (and there's a bucket load of them!) but I want the SHOW to do that. Show us that because Sam has been "other" that he understands what Dean is experiencing. Show us that Dean knows that's why Sam is so strong. Show us that Sam has a deep understanding of what it's like to carrying "evil" within his veins and that's why he's so good at this. Show us that Sam has beaten this and that's why he knows Dean can. Remind us that Dean actually locked Sam up when Sam was fighting his demons - and beat the crap out of him when he found out he lost his soul. In all honesty, I don't think they even remember what Sam has ever been through.
I dunno. I wrote on twitter that it's a bad time to be a Sam!girl. It just feels like that. We've had a season where his character went back to another universe where he only wanted a normal life, to a character who was prepared to die to save the world but failed, to a character who is betrayed by his brother and loses his autonomy (S9), to a character (this season) who worries about his brother. All this without ever really getting to know how he feels about any of it. And I don't mean feelings like "anger" and "love" and "worry". It's about feelings in context to everything else. Like we are seeing with Dean. Dean's unravelling story arc is deep and full of emotion tied to his childhood and past mistakes and self esteem and sense of worth and how he feels about Sam and pretty much everything we know about him. Sam's is tied to…? *sounds of crickets*…. (I think it's tied to aa writing team and show runner that haven't quite figured out who Sam is. They prefer the plot devise, emotional catalyst (for Dean) and enigma).
And maybe that's deliberate. I think we're heading for S4 Sam soon (as we've already had S1, S2 and currently S3 Sam) and I'm not at all feeling confident that we'll get the corresponding emotion we got back then. We currently have S3 Sam - worrying about Dean and trying all he can to save him. But at least we had Mystery Spot back then to give us great insight into Sam's sense of helplessness.
Is there light at the end of this tunnel? Perhaps I should just be satisfied with "good brother" Sam. And boy am I going to love it when he turns "dark side" and completely wipes out any progress he's ever made as a character. Or maybe I'm jumping the gun. If Sam actually manages to save Dean without compromising his character I'll stand corrected on all of this (though if they want to give us dark!Sam and dark!Dean together and really go there, I'll go along for the ride).
(dammit. It's late. I'll post this anyway. I'm sure there's a million typos…)
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Re: 1/2
Date: 2015-02-25 12:37 pm (UTC)My hope, actually, is that once Dean hits Big Revelation time, when we find out the central, secret driver that has convinced Dean he's "not worth saving", we will get a corresponding focus on Sam and what drives him.
I love this idea. I would love to think that they have an overall plan of getting to this point. If they do end this with some massive reveal from Dean I'll think I'll probably implode. I'm not sure they'll actually get there (especially as I think this story is heading toward a lot more dark stuff and them sinking deeper into their issues without resolution as we head toward the finale. I can see them drawing that out into the next season). Some sort of genuine resolution would be so satisfying though.
and Supernatural isn't always great at following through on arcs.
Yeah. And something that's left me feeling very frustrated. For them to open a massive Sam's autonomy being removed and not allow Sam to have had any real and sympathetic reaction to that, is a travesty. Not to mention he's been possessed so many times and that didn't even play into it. I accept that Dean's arc stems from that moment (and can be tied to the past also), so I can see that Sam's storyline over the last 2.5 seasons has worked primarily as a catalyst to Dean's story.
Maybe it's time for you to take a break, so you can come back to it fresh later on.
To be honest I wish I COULD do that. I've tried. I keep thinking "I'll take a break", but I am SO addicted to this show that I can't simply not watch it. Each week, even though I know I'll be disappointed, I look forward to tuning in. I still live in hope that what they are "teasing" as you have put it, comes to fruition. I hope each week that Sam will have a voice and they'll somehow remember what he's been through before (and yeah, I'm pretty Sam focused (and SamnDean focussed *g*), so I keep thinking I'm not asking for thaaaaaat much.
(I'll reply to the second part separately).
RE: Re: 1/2
Date: 2015-02-25 01:58 pm (UTC):)
I'm really glad you made this post, because I've been reading the replies with interest, in addition to your own thoughts. You have such a different take on the show to me, but also, you watch it for such different things. I enjoy learning about how other people read things, and the meaning they take from it.
so I can see that Sam's storyline over the last 2.5 seasons has worked primarily as a catalyst to Dean's story
I know exactly what you mean with this. That said, I've always thought Sam was used this way to set up Dean's arcs. It's just that in the past it wasn't quite so overt, and Sam got some touchstone scenes along the way so that he had his own development too. I wonder if that's just our different reading positions?
Re: Re: 1/2
Date: 2015-02-25 02:09 pm (UTC)No, I think we are reading it the same. I think Sam has always been used this way, but the difference then to now is that the writers gave him some emotional notes back then. They actually gave us the occasional Sam-centric episode so we could see his point of view. Not many, but enough to make him a fully fledged character, In S9 Sam didn't have one episode (except for some great moments in 9,01). . None in S10 so far. It's more obvious now because when they do something like have him possessed (violated) without his consent, and we NOT get his POV on that, it's much more noticeable.
Re: Re: 1/2
Date: 2015-02-25 02:16 pm (UTC)Speaking of gripes, something I'm really fucking tired of is poorly handled consent narratives. I really do think it's related to gender -- that it's a problem partly caused by so many of the writers being male. I don't think they even really know what they've written, because they don't think about rape from that perspective, but I bet Gamble wouldn't have played out a consent narrative that way. Not saying she wouldn't have been perfect, but I'm sure Sam would have had an ep. From what I know of Sam's s9 arc, it was just gross. Hence me exercising my ability to choose, and not watching s9.
Re: Re: 1/2
Date: 2015-02-25 02:35 pm (UTC)Re: Re: 1/2
Date: 2015-02-25 03:14 pm (UTC)From that perspective, what you say of Dean's reaction is right on the money -- he's acting just as John taught him to, but feeling the inner conflict in a way John never would.
Hmmm. I'm on the fence. I don't want to watch it, so I can't do my own reading, but it does actually sound related to the trauma arc from what you say.
I just wish they'd really pay all this build-up off. I want a proper story climax for once. Ugh.
Re: 1/2
Date: 2015-02-26 12:49 pm (UTC)I just wish they'd really pay all this build-up off. I want a proper story climax for once. Ugh.
Oh you and me both. I read an interesting meta about how the show keeps missing those pay offs. It opens an issue, doesn't resolve it, then moves on to another one. It's not only frustrating, but very unsatisfying.
we'll see, they may be playing the really long game and have one huge pay off when it all ends. ;)