Putting it out there...
Jun. 18th, 2015 08:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Pondering this lately because I've been warning to write something about this ('cause of reasons…). Are Sam and Dean actually codependent? Zachariah said they were and they are often referred to by fans as codependent (both negatively and positively). But are they?
of or relating to a relationship in which one person is physically or psychologically addicted, as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.
excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically a partner who requires support due to an illness or addiction.
1. Mutually dependent.
2. Of or relating to a relationship in which one person is psychologically dependent in an unhealthy way on someone who is addicted to a drug or self-destructive behavior, such as chronic gambling.
So is codependency the right word for their relationship? Just curious...
[Poll #2014387]
of or relating to a relationship in which one person is physically or psychologically addicted, as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.
excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically a partner who requires support due to an illness or addiction.
1. Mutually dependent.
2. Of or relating to a relationship in which one person is psychologically dependent in an unhealthy way on someone who is addicted to a drug or self-destructive behavior, such as chronic gambling.
So is codependency the right word for their relationship? Just curious...
[Poll #2014387]
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Date: 2015-06-18 01:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 02:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 01:55 pm (UTC)I did a little research on this some time back, and I am NOT sure my information is correct, but from what I could gather, it doesn't fit them very well. I agree that they are very attached to each other, and take, shall we say, liberties that don't respect boundaries enough. Regardless, shaming people for nit being normative or squeaky-clean healthy, sucks.
The definition above is pretty cruel, imo.
OK - so it isn't even in the DSM, and some argue that it is basically a healthy thing.
According to the proposed and rejected DSM entry, though, yeah, it does sound like them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency#Failed_proposal_for_inclusion_in_DSM
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Date: 2015-06-18 02:14 pm (UTC)Regardless, shaming people for nit being normative or squeaky-clean healthy, sucks.
this is a little a long the lines of something I want to write about. Or rather…people who watch (and enjoy/am intrigued by) that aspect of their relationship.
Thanks so much for the link. It seems the definition of codependency isn't easily defined...
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Date: 2015-06-18 02:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 03:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 03:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 11:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-19 04:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 02:53 pm (UTC)But yes, in fandom I've definitely called them codependent before but I guess I meant it as more of a fandom definition, like our own way of describing the Winchesters that we all understand, but maybe an outsider wouldn't?
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Date: 2015-06-18 03:07 pm (UTC)Word!
but maybe an outsider wouldn't?
Ah, yes. That's interesting. I always wonder how "outsiders" view things. Probably just..."shrug* they're brothers. That's what brothers do. (or probably don't even think much about it. I need to take a leaf I think...;D)
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Date: 2015-06-18 04:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 02:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-20 12:32 am (UTC)I wonder though if the term codependent as a way of describing their relationship was first used after Zach mentioned it. Hmmmm
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Date: 2015-06-20 12:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 04:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-20 12:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 05:23 pm (UTC)I don't think you can put a clinically accurate label on their relationship. I don't think you could reproduce their relationship with another pair of siblings, given the irreplicable circumstances of their upbringing and the personal idiosyncrasies of their personalities, and how those combine to give us these characters and the relationship they have, not forgetting the fictionality of all the above.
Ultimately, it is what it is, and I don't think the brothers or their relationship benefit, or suffer, from labels except as how labels serve to further separate them together, in viewers' eyes, from "normal" society.
I'm not sure I answered the question?
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Date: 2015-06-20 12:36 am (UTC)And I'd agree with that. Also, it helps with what I'm thinking about writing about. Especially the fictionality of their relationship.
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Date: 2015-06-18 06:09 pm (UTC)It originally just referred to close relatives of addicts who continue enabling the addcits over a prolonged period of time (covering up, being supportive, putting own needs second) to meet their own psychological needs (fear of abandonment, being a carer, confirming own sense of worthlessness).
More recently it has been broadened out to include enabeling other kind of unhealthy or inacceptable behaviour patters in a partner (less commonly child/parent).
Criteria for codependancy are: it is a one-sided relationship (where one person provides care and support but does not receive it), the relationship is emotionally distructive or abusive to one partner and sustains the other partners addiction/unhealthy or unacceptable behaviour.
I cannot really see how that applies to the Winchesters. This is not to say that they have a healthy relationship (Hell no! And where would be the fun in that anyway?) but it's a very reciprocal relationship where they both 'give and take' and hurt and support each other in (fairly) equal meassures.
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Date: 2015-06-20 12:41 am (UTC)Thanks
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Date: 2015-06-18 06:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-20 12:45 am (UTC)Thanks for that. Never heard that term before and I would say that some fans would agree that maybe that is what they have (I certainly know I seem to have it when it comes to the show!)
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Date: 2015-06-18 06:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 10:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-20 08:51 am (UTC)I would say so too. And interchangeable I think.
I've heard this terms used for twins I know - but I think it wasn't meant in the way its defined in text books (or, on line…). I felt like it was used meaning they can't live without each other - or can't do anything without the others approval etc. I wonder if that's the way fandom sometimes uses it too.
I know I'm psychologically addicted to both of them!
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Date: 2015-07-03 04:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-18 08:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-20 08:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-19 02:11 am (UTC)Codependency is a weird term because although it isn't recognized in the DSM, there is a kind of clinical definition that has to do with one person in a relationship being dependent on the other person being addicted to something. I think there are elements of that there but that leaves out a lot that goes on between the boys. In addition to that though, there seems to be some sort of different understanding of the term codependency in pop culture that has broadened to mean two people in a relationship that can't seem to stay apart from each other, almost like they are addicted to each other and the relationship itself. In the fandom dictionary under codependency, it says see Winchester. Then there is the emphasis the show puts on the family aspect of this relationship. I think Lisa said something about unhealthy, tangled up, and crazy.
Whatever it is, I think watching the relationship over the course of the 10 seasons has been a crash course in the progression of a number of psych problems left uncared-for. I'll be interested to see what you write about those of us interested in that aspect of the show. I really hate to admit how invested I am with the continuation of this largely (at least at this point) unhealthy relationship. For the last 7 years, there has been a thread of SPN that has figured in every major realization I've had about myself. For better or worse, the show has been a big piece of who I have been all through my 40s. I wonder who I'd be without it.
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Date: 2015-06-20 09:05 am (UTC)I'm glad! I always like your thinky! I'm wanting to write about individual reactions to the brothers relationship but realised that if I use the term "co-dependent", it might not be the correct word.
And yes, I think you're right about that definition. The fact that the show itself explores the nature of addiction (Sam with blood, and Dean to the Mark) could link to how they feel about each other. I know I'm grasping at straws here (*g*) but the idea of them being addicted to each other is interesting.
For the last 7 years, there has been a thread of SPN that has figured in every major realization I've had about myself. For better or worse, the show has been a big piece of who I have been all through my 40s. I wonder who I'd be without it.
That is really interesting. And I suspect it must be quite confronting. Their relationship isn't the easiest to accept at times and made worse, I think, because the show seems unable to fully realise the issues they raise.
I wonder who I'd be without it.
That's an interesting thought too. I often think the same due to my rather heavy involvement in fandom over the years. I often wonder what else I would have been doing. I'm not at all unhappy about it as I know I've had a lot of fun - but it does cross my mind.
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Date: 2015-06-19 02:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-20 09:14 am (UTC)It's good to read your interpretation as it's an area I want to write about - how fans respond to it. I suppose each response will be as different as the response to this post.
I can't say I think they have a healthy relationship exactly, though in light of the lives they have it's probably remarkably healthy. I think they have done questionable things to keep each other alive - but it's that aspect of their relationship that makes it so compelling (to me).
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Date: 2015-06-19 02:50 am (UTC)Dean is a parentified child. He was Sam's primary caregiver under difficult and dangerous circumstances. He learned early and hard not to take his eye off the ball(Something Wicked). We see the line between parent and brother blur with both action and word - mostly in earlier seasons, but even as late as Dark Dynasty. And parents don't outlive their kids.
Sam will always be...well, the Child. Constantly running either to or from Dean. Clandestinely scheming and secretive. He wants so badly to 'save' his brother, to make Dean proud, he misses the forest for the trees. But he never stops trying, that validation means so much.
So, I don't think codependent. I think they are each chasing their own tails while orbiting the black hole that is John.
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Date: 2015-06-19 07:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-19 03:13 am (UTC)ps - I also love your thinky thoughts :)
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Date: 2015-06-21 09:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-19 07:13 am (UTC)However, where they do display extreme codependency is in their inability to *let* the other go/walk away/in some cases die.
This I think is linked heavily with John's insistence that Dean make sure he spend his entire life working to look after Sam, whether that be putting food on their table or saving him from monsters of unspeakable evil, or even himself.
They both seem to have an overwhelming need to make sure the other does not check out, and if they do, they are damned well coming back, whether they like it or not.
They can both live quite happily apart, as long as they are in fact alive!
Just my random thoughts on it ;)
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Date: 2015-06-21 09:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-22 02:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-20 06:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-21 09:43 am (UTC)Thanks for your thoughts.
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Date: 2015-06-21 08:55 am (UTC)2. Of or relating to a relationship in which one person is psychologically dependent in an unhealthy way on someone who is addicted to a drug or self-destructive behavior, such as chronic gambling.
See, I'm old and the mutually dependent definition of the word is the one I use as that's how I was schooled, things like trade, pollination etc, those things were always co-dependant or mutually dependent which is a highly beneficial relationship.
The second definition, if you trace it back, goes only to the early 80s and came about from first AA addressing the family problems and using the term co-alcoholic, then on to co-chemically dependent, which was later shortened to codependent.
This is an age and culture/language thing to me as the two meanings seem totally opposite to each other and I often forget it's newer more clinical usage.
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Date: 2015-06-21 10:42 am (UTC)Hmmm, yes. And interesting when thinking of it like that for the Winchesters. And maybe the discussion is more about whether their relationship is indeed highly beneficial. Perhaps to each other (if staying alive is indeed beneficial) but maybe not for the world? Or dammit, maybe it IS good for the world if they're out there keeping (some) people safe.
which was later shortened to codependent.
Oh that's interesting. It's not a word I've come across before hearing it as a way of describing the Winchesters. I've always thought as is simply as mutually depending on each other - which I think describes the boys. It seems though it has a much deeper, darker clinical meaning that some fans seem to like to use when demonstrating how negative the relationship is.
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Date: 2015-06-21 12:15 pm (UTC)I guess I've always seen them as knowing deep down they can only rely, trust, work, really know each other in the whole world, an isolation that makes them incredible attuned to each other, the ultimate fighting unit because each is the other half of the other and I've never seen anything wrong there. Tom Burke, when talking about the Musketeers, always talks about their 'codependency' and he always means how they ultimately only totally trust and rely on each other, the bond that has been forged in fire of war and brotherhood and there is nothing unhealthy there.
I think maybe we need to actually drop the word 'codependency' because it is obviously not meaning the same to everyone? Yeah, oh look - there's a piggy up there behind that cloud...
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Date: 2015-06-21 12:48 pm (UTC)Which is precisely why I asked the question. *g* I was starting to write some stuff up about their "codependency" as though it's a given. I then thought that everyone will have their own idea of what that word means and that many won't even use that word to describe their relationship (and I think the poll confirmed that. Though many do consider them "co-dependent" - but I'm sure each have their own definition of it).
You know, I'm mostly (still!) trying to get my head around being told I'm scary because I was showing some excitement about the boys relationship. I wanted to write something about that but maybe it's more about understanding that everyone reacts to it differently and that's just the way it is.
Still might write something in defence of liking it though…;)
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Date: 2015-06-21 01:41 pm (UTC)Individuals and their circumstances are always going to affect everyone differently; how we interpret show scenes is dependent on our own histories and experiences which are all unique and this naturally spills over into fandom. However, I'm of the opinion we can't be expected to understand each individual's nuances only try to be open minded; triggers, no matter how careful we are, are as individual as a finger print and there's always going to be something taken for granted that another will interpret differently on both sides.
You ain't scary honey, I do appreciate though that an accusation like that, coming out of the blue, is deeply disturbing and bewildering because it wasn't meant in the fashion it was taken, but that often is the case with personal upsets and triggers. Maybe writing some of it out in the context of this differing meanings of a single word will help - *shrug* I really don't know, but good luck - you know how scared fandom makes me! ♥
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Date: 2015-06-22 12:03 pm (UTC)