11.10 reaction (warning for squee harshing content)

[ash48]

I haven't posted anything about 11.10 yet because a) I'm away from my computer (on holidays) and typing on my iPad which isn't ideal and b) I really don't know how to say what I want to say about it (though I've tried).

(warning - negativity under the cut. Please do not let me harsh your squee. Move on by (like I know I really should).



I did a lot of soul searching last night after watching the episode. I had a moment of clarity that made me see how Carver is essentially just taking the piss. The sheer laziness in the storytelling made me want to weep (and in fact I did). I was seriously contemplating taking my bat and ball and going home. And I was ready to do it but an addiction like this is not so easy to kick it seems (the next day I was back checking all my fandom places and wanting to talk about it /O\) It's purely personal - it's about the way I watch and enjoy this show. I know many loved it and I think that's awesome. :)

I can't write it all out here but I will just say this; Season 4 and 5 were built around Sam and Dean evolving to a point where they had to say yes/no to lucifer/Michael. It explored motive, weakness, loyalty, trust and strength. And then in one episode. ONE EPISODE. Cas said yes to lucifer. No build up, no exploration, no in-depth motive' it was just "ooh, I know what we can do with Cas now! Let's make him Lucifer!" He has one tiny scene that makes me feel less heroic than Sam and Dean and *wham* he's lucifer. They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

Then there was the confirmation that Sam didn't look for Dean in S8 because they had apparently made a promise not to. If you are going to do that to a character give us that scene. In S5 there was a scene where Sam told Dean to go and live his life after his death. Even then, we found out in S6 that Dean still tried all he could to find Sam. So in s8 we have Sam not even trying to figure out where dean went and abandoning Kevin because of an off-screen "promise". I'm sorry, but that's carver's canon and I just cannot accept it (and he keeps pushing that message home - like if he says it enough it will make it true).

Ok, there were some nice bits in that ep, but even the funny voice message and bro touching couldn't shake me out of the "what the fuck was that?!" after it all sunk in.

(And don't get me started on the fandom war it's created about who played the better Lucifer. The cynic in me thinks it a deliberate ploy to stir up fandom on-line chatter. The realist in me says they simply have no idea what they are doing and it's just a "fun" place to take the storyline).

I'm glad Rowena got a chance to tell us why she's the way she is before they killed her. It was one of her best scenes.

There's more but I am feeling just so weary. I long for the simple MOTW eps where they stop trying to do something with an absurd myth arc that is not thought through.

(And why didn't Lucifer just kill Sam and Dean? How does the devil have a fist fight? What happened to a click of the fingers and a body explodes. Agh...I have to stop before I explode).

I used too many brackets. Oh well.

Comments

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

((big hugs))

...and *wham* he's lucifer. They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

Perhaps Netflix was what prepared him to become a willing vessel... *ducks*

Sarcastic aside, I understand your reaction. The clown show tendencies (for lack of better word) are irritating me, too.
I agree with Rowena having one of her best scenes telling why she hates Crowly. The fist fight in the cage was off putting to me. Supernatural punching.. :P
Having said all that, I still generally enjoyed watching the ep. Watching these characters run across the screen sometimes seems sufficent to make me feel content.

I do hope the next ep will make you feel better again. :-*

xx

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Ha ha you nailed it - too much Netflix addled Castiel's brain!

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I understand completely. i think I've set aside Seasons 1-5 as being something else now, and I'm just going with the flow for this season a bit more. It doesn't stop me thinking about the naffness after the initial fun of an episode dies, but it stops me hoping the Carver who gave us Mystery Spot wasn't an aberration.

I haven't been on tumblr to read the fanwank debating - I can't be arsed. Basically I can't see how Misha can possibly make it convincing because he isn't Mark Pellegrino, and Mark has made that role so perfectly his. I love Misha, he's a great person but I don't think he's that great an actor. There's no point in saying that anywhere outside of LJ because Twitter and Tumblr abounds with Misha's acolytes that hear no reason.

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

The "Best Lucifer" fandom war, at least on Twitter (I don't do Tumblr) is between Misha and Jared fans. Mark P has barely gotten a mention (at least on my timeline).

I think Misha played way OTT, far too hammy and obvious. What I loved (and will always love) about Jared's version is how subtle he was. He didn't try to impersonate Mark and yet you could tell instantly that he wasn't Sam any more.

[ellie-234.livejournal.com]

I admit I am not a fan of Carver,s Supernatural. The Lucifer /Castiel sl just smacks of needing to give the character some relevance , it is just a pity they had to take it from Sam,s mytharc and not actually create a original sl for him.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It feels like they were desperate to find something for Cas. I'm not sure if it's taking away Sam's arc though (what happened in the past will never be taken from him) it's just curious that they have mirrored Sam's and Cas's experiences. Sam and Cas have been mirrored throughout the series (both responsible for releasing Lucifer, both seeking redemption, both having the effects of Sam's broken wall, etc) If I thought there was any plan I'd say it could be a way of exploring that. But I don't. ;/. At least Sam and Dean are now working side my side again (I hope).

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I was thinking last night that I have enjoyed the MoTW episodes this season and that I should just skip the mytharc ones. This comment is a pretty irritated snarky response to the episode so if you don't want to read it, that's cool.

My reaction to Rowena's death was ok, now she'll be a demon. Not, oh dear, she's dead, we've seen the last of her. Why didn't Lucifer smite Crowley immediately?

I have no idea why Cas said yes even after watching the episode. It just feels like an extension of the lack of an idea of what to do with Cas so we'll make him bad and Dean and Sam can worry about him and have to save him because that will make some fans really happy. It was like Cas made the most futile of acts to get the attention of an unrequited teenage crush (Sam, Dean, the other angels, God). The only way this works for me is if he's seen some sort of fatal Lucifer flaw because he took on Sam's stuff after he broke the wall and he can get that info to the Winchesters. Because, of course Sam and Dean are going to destroy Cas in the process of killing Lucifer. Rolls eyes forever. Maybe he thinks he's strong enough to do what Sam did and control Lucifer. How is he even a strong enough vessel to hold Lucifer? Maybe Casifer will come across Metatron who will call him asstiel and then Lucifer can smite him for something useful to come out of this chuckforsaken plot line. Maybe the warning about watching people you love die was a warning to fans in terms of Cas.

Lucifer kept berating Sam for being weak (he's not) yada yada and I just wanted to shout at him, whose fault is that, you stupid ass? Gee 200 years of torture is such a positive mental health experience. They seriously dumbed down Lucifer as well as Cas. What even were those memories. Because teenage Sam jumping at an offered makeout session shows so much more boldness than hmmm let's say Stanford maybe? As far as I can see it, the only credible move Lucifer made was to threaten Dean's life and even that was pretty lame. Possessed murderous clown costumes were scarier.

I'm bummed out because I haven't felt this snarky post-episode in a while. I hate that I have to feel slightly detached and not as invested in the show to keep the irritation down enough to enjoy watching. It's doubly irritating when even that doesn't work.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

This comment is a pretty irritated snarky response to the episode so if you don't want to read it, that's cool.

Hee, well, my whole post was irritated snark so it's totally cool!

My reaction to Rowena's death was ok, now she'll be a demon.

Exactly. I wasn't expecting it, but when it happened I was like - ok, but she'll be back so there's that. And actually, if she does come back as a demon that might be ok (though, I still remember they said it takes centuries for demons to be made - but I suspect they'll find a way around that).

I have no idea why Cas said yes even after watching the episode.

Yeah, this is the biggest issue I had with the episode. It just makes no sense - it doesn't even feel heroic - rather, a thoughtless act to make himself feel needed. I dunno. Maybe he'll have (another) redemption arc as they are really struggling to know what to do with him. They have been hampered by their own success of Cas. I wonder now how much canon they'll have to break now that back he's on earth. He's going to be off doing stuff (the eps where Misha isn't used) and then coming back into the storyline when he's used again. Argh. *headspin* Both Amara AND lucifer to have to contend with.

Gee 200 years of torture is such a positive mental health experience.

Haha! Lu didn't consider the damage he's already done to poor Sam. I'm not entirely sure what his aim was in making Sam feel less of a hero (compared he when he actually kissed a girl O_o), but I'm not complaining because at least we got some Sam POV and got to see him being kickass in his response to Lucifer.

I'm bummed out because I haven't felt this snarky post-episode in a while.

Me too! I think I've made only one other one this season - so that's pretty good going. :)

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

Yep.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. :/.

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

I, too, had mixed feelings about it but that was partly due to the boring angel stuff, Dean just spinning his wheels, and the total lameness of smiting sickness. How ridiculous. Billie seems rather awesome. How about more of her rather than boring one-off angels???

I do wish there had been a scene where Dean and Sam promise not to look for each other even if it doesn't really jive with my own head canon that Sam thought Dean was dead and wasn't going to look for him/bring him back from the dead. But if that's what they're going with, I wanna see it, please and thank you.

As for all the painful things Lucifer said to Sam, I saw that as typical Lucifer manipulations; twisting Sam's own guilt and self-doubt, something that Sam has always struggled with, to suit his own needs. And it would have been perfect if not for Sam's line about them promising each other to not look for one another which ruins the whole thing, really.

However, the scenes with Sam and Lucifer were the best. These two play off each other so well.

I am going to give it some time but my first impression of Misha's Lucifer was not positive. I agree that we had no buildup for that and a one off scene with a throwaway angel we have never met was not enough. I agree it's just a way to give the character something to do. But I can admit that I can't see where it is going so that in and of itself sparks some interest. How does that work? An archangel possessing an angel possessing what's left of Jimmy? Will he deteriorate? In a reverse twist of season seven, will Sam feel the need to take on Lucifer to save Castiel? Mark and Jared's Lucifer could be so cunning, even subtly chilling. Misha seems to have taken the over the top Lucifer to heart so I found the menace, even when he killed Rowena, totally lacking. It made me realize, yet again, how Jared, as an actor, doesn't often get the credit he deserves. But the Cassifer scenes were brief so I will hold judgment until I see more.

Even though I'm kinda glad to see Rowena gone, that bit of character development before Lucifer did what we knew he would do was a bit inspired I think so I can give kudos for that.

Crowleys onesie with his Funko Sam would make an excellent cosplay.

And my friend likened the whole thing to A Christmas Carol where Lucifer is the Ghost of Everything which just might make me enjoy the ep more on a rewatch.

I haven't talked about the show that much but, overall, I have really enjoyed this season thus far and I hope it's not all downhill from here. It would all probably work if these writers were able to create a cohesive mytharc. They seem to be weak in this area, spinning off characters and ideas in too many dead end directions.

So, yeah. As you can see, very obviously mixed feelings but it does have me thinking about it, which is a plus I suppose

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Dean was just spinning his wheels wasn't he?

I am confused about the "smiting sickness" - is that when Amara was "smiter" by…heaven? I have to go back and watch that bit.

And I agree that the Sam and Lucifer scenes were the strongest. They do have a good on screen rapport. Also, I thought the dialogue was the strongest (though, I'm probably biased on that count…).

I am going to give it some time but my first impression of Misha's Lucifer was not positive.

Mine too. I could see what he was trying to do, but it came across initially as ham acting and it didn't do Misha any favours. Though, there were a couple of moments that I thought he was very convincing as Mark's Lucifer - so I figure that's what he was doing. If he can calm down the "faces", it might work much better for him. We'll see what happens. I am absolutely stuck with any ideas as to what they ware going to do with him. I want to see some great reasons why he doesn't just snap Sam and Dean (and Crowley's) necks when he next sees them. he won't - I just hope we know why.

Crowley's onesie was great!

I have really enjoyed this season thus far

Me too. I know this reaction makes it seem like I haven't, but it's been my fave over the last few years so far. Fingers crossed they've got a good plan going into the finale. :)

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I can't believe they needed to make it canon that Sam didn't look for Dean after S7. I'm still reeling. What can possibly be the point of that? And then we still have Lucifer going on about how they do anything to save the other one or bring the other one back? Does this feel like a total contradiction to anyone else? And we can't even explain it away with fan fiction because the show had to go and make it CANON.

Sorry, did something else happen in this episode? I forget...

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

That's a great point. It's like they want to have it both ways, and they just can't.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

{{{{{hugs you}}}}}

I long for the simple MOTW eps where they stop trying to do something with an absurd myth arc that is not thought through.

On this we agree wholeheartedly. All my favorite eps in the last...wow, 8 years...have been MOTW. Basically nothing about the angels has ever worked for me particularly well, especially not since they had their first fistfight in S4. And nothing about demons, either, since they became laughable (I'd say around the time burning Crowley's bones came into the picture). And yet, I seem to have reached a zen place where my expectations are so low, I enjoy what I enjoy and handwave the rest. I tried walking away, and it didn't work, so I'm happy to have found a way to work around it.

{{{{more hugs!}}}}

[fufaraw]

Basically nothing about the angels has ever worked for me particularly well, especially not since they had their first fistfight in S4. And nothing about demons, either, since they became laughable (I'd say around the time burning Crowley's bones came into the picture). And yet, I seem to have reached a zen place where my expectations are so low, I enjoy what I enjoy and handwave the rest. I tried walking away, and it didn't work, so I'm happy to have found a way to work around it.

(nods furiously)

I knew I liked you for a reason. This, all of this.

Mostly what the writers and directors of storylines and arcs in recent years have done is teach me to ignore canon when it's patently ridiculous, or impossible to believe or reconcile with previous canon.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I'm finally out so I didn't watch, but sending you love and understanding anyway (snark-free)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Congratulations and thanks. ❤️ Kicking this addiction is harder than giving up smoking and sugar. I kicked those, but can't kick this one it seems. :/

[yourlibrarian]

The sheer laziness in the storytelling made me want to weep...Season 4 and 5 were built around Sam and Dean evolving to a point where they had to say yes/no to lucifer/Michael. It explored motive, weakness, loyalty, trust and strength. And then in one episode. ONE EPISODE. Cas said yes to lucifer...They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

Yeah, that's been my problem with the show since its early days, and you put your finger on the problem perfectly. I agree that it seems designed to give MC something fun to do while also keeping their budget down. However, given their long track record you can expect that this storyline will end pretty quickly because they're all about throwing ideas out there (sometimes great ideas) with no thought about follow-through and then just leaving most of the possibilities unexplored.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

because they're all about throwing ideas out there (sometimes great ideas) with no thought about follow-through and then just leaving most of the possibilities unexplored.

This exactly. I don't know why I constantly expect more. I'm always telling myself not to expect more and then I get hopeful and then disappointed. Thats why MoTW work better for me these days. :)

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

The thing about the (non)agreement that Sam and Dean not look for one another is that it doesn't explain why Sam didn't hunt down the remaining leviathan or why he abandoned Kevin to Crowley's tender care. Carver is still butthurt about fans hating that storyline and, you're totally right, it's like he thinks if it gets repeated often enough we'll buy it. We won't.

I agree completely about the Lucifer storyline. What makes me sick is that springing Lucifer erases all everything Sam and Dean fought and sacrificed for in season five and ultimately in "Swan Song" and all the fallout after -- Dean's year alone, Sam being soulless, hallucife, all of it. It makes me want to punch Carver in the face tbh. It's like he's determined to deconstruct all the Kripke and Gamble seasons.

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

What makes me sick is that springing Lucifer erases all everything Sam and Dean fought and sacrificed for in season five and ultimately in "Swan Song" and all the fallout after

This! Exactly! This storyline is taking the meaning out of all the sacrifice!

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Hey, bb. We'll always have the early seasons. :) I don't know why Carver seems so bound and determined to destroy what was once a magnificent construct (and after an amazing beginning to S11, too), but yeah, he sure doesn't seem to like SPN very much.

"ooh, I know what we can do with Cas now! Let's make him Lucifer!"

*sigh* Pretty much this. The character has become useless and irrelevant, yet the writers keep trying to make him relevant to the plot -- that's all this is.

IDK. With the exception of the sucking pit of suckitude that was Misha's version of Lucifer, I generally liked the episode. The voicemail, the reveal of Rowena's past, Dean leaping to Sam's rescue in the cage, "Have you met me?" . . . SPN is not what it used to be for sure, but it still has its moments. I won't be quitting the show any time soon. :)

I'm hoping that 11.10 was an aberration. May next week's episode be much better.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I like your list of good things! (Which you already know.) I know I won't quit it, so we might as well roll around in the fun stuff, yeah? :)

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

All of this, but especially this:

They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

You know, they could have sold this so well. They could have had Cas getting more and more freaked out about the Darkness over several episodes, but it's like they didn't even think about it until they were plotting 11.10.

[fanspired]

It's been quite clear to me for a while that they plan the season in two halves, and they don't even think about the second half until the show's gone to air and they get the fan reaction to the early episodes. Singer's even admitted as much.

[fanspired]

For me, seasons 1 to 5 are canon. They tell a complete story, and it's a tragedy. That's Supernatural for me.

Everything since I regard as the equivalent of professional fan-fiction, of variable quality. I've trained myself to look at it this way otherwise it would just make me too angry to watch.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee, I'm trying different approaches. It works ok most of the time - just not when I get toooooo upset with it . Like this episode.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Here to squee your harsh :)

So Carver is unable to have Sam say the actual words 'I thought Dean was dead and we agreed what's dead should stay dead.' But he didn't contradict that either, so we can put it in as canon in our own heads. 'We agreed not to look for each other' is simply missing the first half of the statement, 'I thought you were dead.' In the cabin when Sam finds Dean returned from Purgatory, Sam says 'we agreed not to look for each other' and Dean didn't deny that, just said he didn't mean it. But that doesn't mean Sam couldn't have meant it sincerely.

Lucifer's psychology of trying to convince Sam that saying yes would be a return to his brave self was scary--I could see how Lucifer was playing Sam but I didn't know if Sam was seeing it! And the twisted way Lucifer was presenting Sam's character changes since Swan Song made sense in that Sam has lost some of his confidence in his own decisions.

As far as Casifer...from a purely practical sense, there's no way Mark Pellegrino could continue on SPN because of his own upcoming series, so moving Lucifer into Castiel is one way to keep the character going. And, while I don't know if this is in the cards, it could be fulfilling to watch Sam and Dean unite to save Cas, instead of one of them either fighting with or saving the other, giving show a little different dynamic.

I wondered why Lucifer resorted to a fistfight instead of using his torture skills, but perhaps he does not have access to those powers in the temporary cage Rowena made? If he pulled out Sam's intestines Sam would actually die and then where would Luci be?

I do wish we could have lingered just a moment longer to show what Sam would have said to Lucifer's threat to kill Dean unless Sam capitulated. I really wonder which way Sam was leaning, especially after Lucifer's emotional manipulation of earlier.

As for why did Cas say yes? I agree his motivation was given short shrift, and it seems pretty clear Carver has never been very sure what to do with the character. Misha's not going anywhere, though, because Jared and Jensen won't want to go back to being the only 2 leads and working all the time.

We can speculate that ever since Rowena put Cas under the attack-dog spell he has been doubting himself, so sacrifing himself to save Sam/Dean/humanity would be a way to redeem himself. We are also left to infer that Cas' interaction with Amara scared him so badly that he has no faith in the boys to handle her. Or could he have picked up on her link with Dean? Is he determined to end the Darkness so that Dean isn't consumed? One has to wonder, though, how he intends to reign Lucifer in after he takes care of the Darkness. But then, thinking through the consequences has never been Cas' strong point...

I will say that while watching my first reaction to Casifer was OMG, how clever...but after a couple days' thought I see that Casifer is actually a rehas of LeviCas. So not really a new idea after all...but it does up the ante, the boys have to defeat both Amara and Lucifer. Will those two end up like Abaddon and Crowley? I always felt so much more could have been done with Abaddon and Dean--like they are doing with Amara and Dean now.

Rowena's last scene with Crowley actually was the first time I felt anything besides annoyance with her. And as soon as Casifer said she was going to get her reward, I knew she was toast.

Perhaps the overall lesson of SPN is that hubris always gets its comeuppance?

I know there have been some reactions disliking Misha's Lucifer, but honestly, when he initially revealed himself his face and body language were so different that for a moment I wasn't sure it was Misha! And as far as being over-the-top, I've always found Pellegrino's Lucifer to be over-the-top as well, especially in these 2 episodes.

Anyway, I hope I've given you a little hope to go on. IMO this is the most engaging season as a whole in a while. Not perfect, but then it's never going to be because it's a product of a group mind. And Carver's no Kripke. But Kripke wasn't always perfect either...

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I like your spin on it, B!

[lavinialavender.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

Can you tell me what Rowena's backstory was? I'm a little curious about that.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Crowley asked her why she didn't love him, and she was wearing a witchs' collar, which apparently forces her to tell the truth.

She admitted that she'd loved his father, but he left her pregnant and dirt poor, and giving birth on a filthy straw mat. She vowed at that point never to let herself love again. In a nutshell. It was a lovely performance by Ruthie Connell!

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I mourn for the show that had a soul, all that's left is a strange shell filled with idiots who couldn't menace a mouse. It still has it's brighter moments, I won't deny that, but mostly it's a sad shadow of it's former self where humour wasn't slapstick, performances were nuanced, there was a chill in the air and empathy filled my heart.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh it did have a soul didn't it? And I think it still does at times - but chucking away significant moments in order to…i dunno - set up the second half? move things along? give Cas something to do? - is heartbreaking.

But. I am sure there will be some better eps ahead! *thinks positively*

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

hi ash, this is what i posted on another site:*i dont like it, i hate it, the Casifer stuff is just another cannon bust from what i see. im sorry but no no just no.

*let's make another shocking revelation that they the fans wont see coming, have Lucifer possessing Cas, yeah, that'll work! * :( anything that Sam gets Cas can do better right.

*lets have the brothers be clueless for 8 episodes that wings is not wings (again NO!) hopefully this lasts 1 episode or 2 if they dont figure out that wings is not wings within an episode or 2, i seriously ? if they're treating Sam and Dean like idiot on purpose or not?

this story is ridiculous. it undoes season 5, if they do another story that undoes another season, i fear they can have the whole series can be undone, copy previously done stories, put a spin on it and call it something different--come out with a different outcome
after reading this, my grade is now no comment :(

*hugs* i feel the same way <3

[ash48.livejournal.com]

let's make another shocking revelation that they the fans wont see coming, have Lucifer possessing Cas, yeah, that'll work!

What's so funny about that is the promo pretty much gave it away. Also the promo pics. So it totally came as no surprise to so many. I knew it was coming and I was ok with it - until it actually happened. I though Cas would do it to save Sam (or because of a spell) instead he said yes because he was feeling hurt. Such a bad reason for making Cas do that.

I think they'll work out wings is not wings pretty quick. I think!

Strangely, I don't have such a big issue of undoing Season 5 - Sam and Dean's sacrifices get crapped in all the time. I don't mind them bringing back past story arcs, as long as they are treated with some thought. Cas saying yes so quickly and without good reason is what made it so annoying. THough it does highlight how important Sam's "no" was and why his "yes" was so important in S5. I'm not a Cas fan, but if I was I would be mighty pissed with this treatment of him.

[elsewhere91.livejournal.com]

Yeah, i 100% agree with your episode review.

I mean the episode wasn't awful and there were a few nice bits, but mostly it just left me feeling...disappointed.

And then in one episode. ONE EPISODE. Cas said yes to lucifer. No build up, no exploration, no in-depth motive' it was just "ooh, I know what we can do with Cas now! Let's make him Lucifer!" He has one tiny scene that makes me feel less heroic than Sam and Dean and *wham* he's lucifer. They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

Yes, it just seriously felt like the writers had no idea what to do with Cas and just made him say yes to Lucifer just because they had to think of something to do with the character.

Then there was the confirmation that Sam didn't look for Dean in S8 because they had apparently made a promise not to. If you are going to do that to a character give us that scene

Yes, the show had a chance to redeem themselves again with the whole Sam not looking for Dean thing, i wouldn't mind as much that Sam didn't look for Dean if there was a scene that showed them having that conversation in a flashback (they had a perfect opportunity in this episode but instead they choose an Amelia flashback), or at least have Sam explaining things in a bit more detail but instead it's just this vague promise that doesn't make much sense.

It's just there was so much potential for this episode, so much for an emotional, amazing episode and instead it just felt like it was setting up the second half of the season.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I agree it wasn't awful - and in fact, it was just a couple of moments that really made me cross. I shouldn't have let it darken the whole ep for me.

And I actually have no issue with Cas being Lucifer, it's just the way it happened. I had hoped it was because it would save Sam (maybe it was?) or it was a spell, but for him to say yes so quickly and without reason (well, so he could beat Amara) made little sense to me.

instead it just felt like it was setting up the second half of the season.

Ah yes, that's it. A set up rather than an "ending" to the first half. Good point. Maybe I've just been looking at it all wrong in that respect (not that it makes it any better…but it explains things).

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent review. I've missed Sam and Dean working together toward a common goal. All of the secret-keeping is just bullshit. I enjoyed the conflict apres Gadreel, but combat for the sake of combat is boring.

The throwaway line about Michael really pissed me off. So many other things pissed me off. I've gotta quit this show. I'm feeling less respect for the actors for sticking around and doing what they know is crap. Jensen must be crawling the walls. He was miserable during the Soulless arc, saying he felt like a whiny girl.

I wrote a tirade on my LJ. First time I've written something since 11x3.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey!

This is an excellent review.

Hee, as I mentioned on you wonderful post I hardly think of this as a "review" - more like letting off steam!

The throwaway line about Michael really pissed me off.

damn! That was so throw away I missed it.

I've gotta quit this show.

I say it every time I watch an ep that annoys me. And yet, here I still am. I need to find better ways of posting about the show me thinks.

xx

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

*Hugs*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks me dear <3

[stardustlegacy.livejournal.com]

I still hope and think that Cas´ body can´t hold Lucifer for too long and he still needs Sam.
Maybe after a few episodes Cas looks like Nick later in S5.
I can´t accept it´s so easy.
S01-05 build up Sam´s storyline to be Lucifers true vessel.
I hope so much Carver remembers...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

See, I think they get away with that because Cas is not actually in Jimmy's original body. Much like Abaddon, the body is reconstructed so it's probably possible it can hold a demon. That body has been totally demolished and reconstructed so I doubt they'll let it deteriorate like a normal human. Maybe? It's hard to know which way they'll go...

[casey28.livejournal.com]

The reason there's no in depth exploration or build up to Cas saying "yes", is because it was a stupid, impulsive thing. Cas never planned to do it, never knew he'd have the opportunity. He took what Ambriel and Amara said about him to heart... and believed it. Sam resisted Lucifer's manipulations (though he did have some doubts about himself) because in the end, he knew it wasn't about himself, or Dean... it was about setting the Devil free, which is just as bad as having Amara around. Whoever wins, they all lose. After everything they did to lock the Devil up for good... all the pain Sam went through... Cas decides its heroic to say "yes" to Lucifer? Lucifer, who wants the world to burn? Nothing heroic about that!

Then there was the confirmation that Sam didn't look for Dean in S8 because they had apparently made a promise not to.

It's already canon, and it's been said before, so even though that storyline sucks, and it's the most OOC thing ever, I just see it as starting point that Lucifer builds on. The focus was on Sam making decisions based on the fact that he can't let Dean go (and that's the Sam I know and love). It all leads up to importance of the brother bond.

(And why didn't Lucifer just kill Sam and Dean?

Good question. Probably because tricking them is fun to him. And maybe he still wants Sam as his vessel. Also, he used his fists in Swan Song, so I guess the devil likes to punch. :P

Anyway, I'm loving this season... there's some issues, but it doesn't keep me from enjoying the show. I'm so thrilled with what they'd done with Sam so far, and we've had some great brother moments.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey.

Yeah, I know why Cas said yes (well, in hindsight and after a re-watch) but it's so unsatisfying. I suspect they have some sort of arc for him now and this is where it starts. I'm not fond of Stupid Cas to be honest.

And maybe he still wants Sam as his vessel. Also, he used his fists in Swan Song, so I guess the devil likes to punch. :P

Yeah, he may still want Sam and I know we can come up with reasons for him not killing them (like we do for Crowley). Hee, and yep! He sure does like to punch!

And I am enjoying this season too. It's only been these myth arc heavy eps (well, this one and the last one) that have been weak (imho). I have also loved what they've been doing with Sam. Finally! :D

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

I know I'm very late here, but I wanted to say you made some good points.

On one had I was SO glad that Sam told Lucifer off and said he'd never be his bitch.

On the other hand, I was like "WTF??" when Cas said yes to Lucifer just like that. I kind of had the idea he'd do something along those lines after reading a spoilery article, but it just seemed... flat to me. Yeah, the other angel went through the whole thing about how they're expendable and then Amara tells him he's afraid, so I guess the writers were trying to show Cas being knocked down and thinking what does he have to lose by saying yes. BUT. He just asked Lucifer if he could defeat the Darkness and then says yes, just like that?

It also kind of cheapened what had gone before, like you said about the whole arc about Dean/Michael and Sam/Lucifer. So much was spent building up that arc and now they do something similar in just one episode? Bah.

And yes, the whole explanation for Sam not looking for Dean from S8 was lame.

Again, I was so glad Sam was firm with Lucifer (not that I'd expect him to do otherwise, but with these writers you never know...*sigh*), but yeah, disappointed about how this was handled.

Here's hoping we get a tiny break and at least some MOTW stuff in tonight's episode.