A question re destiny (or god knows why I'm still thinking about this...)

[ash48]

So, I'm working (well, struggling actually) with this vid and a question came up about the boys' destinies.



Was Sam's destiny always to sacrifice himself to save the world and Dean's was to break the cycle of sacrifice? Which is basically what happened to them in the end.

Or was it to become Michael and Lucifer's vessels all along (as had been mentioned in a few episodes) and they instead exerted some "free will" and therefore didn't fulfil their rightful destinies.

I'm thinking the latter now (man, I'm doing my head in with the amount of turn arounds I've had about this episode). I initially liked the idea that Sam was always destined to save the world (with Dean's help) and Dean was always meant to be the strongest of the Winchesters and break the cycle. But maybe they brought that about themselves. Dean by saying no to Michael and Sam being strong enough to bring Lucifer down.

So free will did win out in the end. Sort of. Because who can say with one brother being dead while the other suffers his loss a win. At all. :(

Or maybe they had 2 potential destinies. Or none. Or...



Ok. My head hurts now. Maybe I'll see if I can make sense of this vid. Though I've realised that even if it doesn't see the light of day (which, let's face it, there's been a plethora of 5.22 vids lately *g*,), I'll have worked something out of my system. :)

Also, special hugs and thanks to my bidders. *smish*

Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. Thank you. And the fact that it was "stacked against" Sam most of his life is testament to what he was able to do at the end.

I'd take from that that the boys were always meant to win out

Which speaks to me of a set destiny. That it seemed like they were on the path to become vessels, but really their actual destiny was to defeat them and save the world. That everything that happened to them was to prepare them for the moment when they had the inner strength to defeat their respective angels.

Ack. I don't even know if that makes sense. Perhaps only in my head. :)

Thanks hun. I love "Dean is the human foil and mouthpiece for a Humanist view". Above it all the "humanness" of Sam and Dean is their strength.

xx

[midnightheir.livejournal.com]

It does make sense but allow me to confuse you some more!

Yes it does speak of a destiny but it isn't the prophecised one (sorry for bastardisation of the human language). Unless there were multiple readings of a singluar hymn sheet then I don't think it was THE destiny that Show!angels were touting. SPN has a very narrow view of the world due to our protags but one could wonder that if Sam had stayed dead, Jake had kept his title then would it have been Bobby and Dean stopping Jake!Devil? What the Winchesters achieved strikes me as being far more fluid than what we had presented to us by Lucifer, Zacheriah et al.

Yip, somewhere Kripke says that it's always been about the humans, the human heart and the brothers. A comic con panel I think but it is out there and Dean's role has always seemed to be that of the foil, and it doesn't rob him of anything since humanity and humans were always meant to be the heroic aspect of the show. /tangent.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It does make sense but allow me to confuse you some more!

Hee! Please do. :)

Yes it does speak of a destiny but it isn't the prophecised one

Yes and this is the thing that fascinates me. Whether they fulfilled THE prophecy (their so called destiny) that was always "meant" to be, or they altered the course of events and thus created new destinies (or rather outcomes). The angels were touting and I got the sense hoping for a certain outcome (Mike v Lu or Sam v Dean), and probably totally believed this would come to be but the very nature of Sam and Dean being human changed the course of events.

but one could wonder that if Sam had stayed dead, Jake had kept his title then would it have been Bobby and Dean stopping Jake!Devil?

Oh wow! Now that does do the head in. It's interesting though because the sense is that Sam was always destined to be Lu's vessel. Or to turn dark side. He was the the "boy king" after all. Though if Jake had won (with Dean not bringing Sam back), then maybe he wouldhave been capable of opening the cage and being Lu's vessel. And thus being the one that Bobby and Dean needed to stop.

Ok. Yikes. My brain is hurting again! I don't think I can even compute that. :)

somewhere Kripke says that it's always been about the humans, the human heart and the brothers.

And I think he was true to his word with this ending. Human strength (of love, loyality, bravery etc.) won out in the end. (though again I use the word "won" loosely).

Oh boy! I'm probably spouting rubbish again, but it;s kinda fun.

Thanks for confusing my brain a bit more... :D

[midnightheir.livejournal.com]

It's not rubbish and this is fun!

The boy!king title came about in S3 didn't it? Thus it would have gone to whoever survived Wyoming and it would have worked out for Jake. If I'm remembering that wrong then disregard. Ava turned dark as did Jake. 'Going darkside' appears to be the inevitable MO of every psykid if we look at the evidence and not something solely for Sam.

Precisely the way they spoke about it and how they moved the goal posts, it's you Dean, *go check the notes* no wait you're a vessel *go check notes* yes THAT reads better. I know I'm engaging in a smidge of handwaving there but that is the sense I got. To make a reference to Whedon's Angel and the Shanshu prophecy it reminds me of that. They got a line or two of 'prophecy' but it was ambiguious open ended translation NOT hard and fast.

What I think the boys did was hack the system. They didn't fulfill the angel's prophecy and at the end even the angels went off sheet by utilising Adam. The boys changed teh field and Heaven had to play catch up as best they could.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! It is indeed fun. :D

Yes. Boy!King was season 3, first ep. So yep, Jake or even Ava could have possibly taken that title, Well, Girl!Queen maybe for Ava.. :)

What I think the boys did was hack the system.

Oh yes. I like that. They are the perfect hackers! :) And maybe the angels learned a thing or two from the Winchesters - they had to do something after all.

xx