A question re destiny (or god knows why I'm still thinking about this...)

[ash48]

So, I'm working (well, struggling actually) with this vid and a question came up about the boys' destinies.



Was Sam's destiny always to sacrifice himself to save the world and Dean's was to break the cycle of sacrifice? Which is basically what happened to them in the end.

Or was it to become Michael and Lucifer's vessels all along (as had been mentioned in a few episodes) and they instead exerted some "free will" and therefore didn't fulfil their rightful destinies.

I'm thinking the latter now (man, I'm doing my head in with the amount of turn arounds I've had about this episode). I initially liked the idea that Sam was always destined to save the world (with Dean's help) and Dean was always meant to be the strongest of the Winchesters and break the cycle. But maybe they brought that about themselves. Dean by saying no to Michael and Sam being strong enough to bring Lucifer down.

So free will did win out in the end. Sort of. Because who can say with one brother being dead while the other suffers his loss a win. At all. :(

Or maybe they had 2 potential destinies. Or none. Or...



Ok. My head hurts now. Maybe I'll see if I can make sense of this vid. Though I've realised that even if it doesn't see the light of day (which, let's face it, there's been a plethora of 5.22 vids lately *g*,), I'll have worked something out of my system. :)

Also, special hugs and thanks to my bidders. *smish*

Comments

[davincis-girl.livejournal.com]

I don't know. It's a hard question. I think that what Dean and Sam were destined to do was to be who they are at their very core, no matter who told them differently. For Dean, that means he is destined to stand by his little brother and try to help him no matter what the cost to himself. For Sam, it is to rebel against those in authority who have a plan for him. I think that those are their rightful destines.

I guess in the end, I don't believe at all in destiny or predetermination, just character.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes indeed. Interesting. They acted according to their characters and how their characters developed over that time, to get them to where they were at the end.

The notion of "destiny" was always a big playing card in the series, but it was more about who they became in the end in order overcome any "plan" laid out for them.

Hmmm.
<33

[thenyxie.livejournal.com]

I think they bucked destiny. I think the story was always meant to be about how Sam & Dean would not fulfill their destinies and chose free will, saving the world instead. I think that's why when Dean called ChuckGod and asked what happens next, ChuckGod didn't know. Because free will was in play at that point. Even God had no idea what happened next. I think their destinies were laid out for them fairly clearly, Dean to be Michael's vessel, Sam to be Lucifer's, then to fight each other in a battle that would bring on the full-fledged apocalypse. And yes, Sam took in Lucifer, but not to fight, but to trap him, which still counts as bucking destiny :) I mean, Sam & Dean being the people they are, how could it all NOT come down to free will? They sort of embody the spirit.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. Nicely put. The notion that ChuckGod couldn't see the end confirms that with free will in play it could go any way. Which I it did.

I mean, Sam & Dean being the people they are, how could it all NOT come down to free will? They sort of embody the spirit.

Indeed. <3 Though I always felt that "free will" would mean some sort of happiness for the boys (and I know we're yet to see that), so having such a sad outcome makes it feel like they didn't actually win anything. Well, they saved the world. But at such an awful cost.

Thanks. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! My head feels like constant "splody" over this one...

I suppose it is multilayered. I also see Sam's sacrifice as redemption. It's something he's wanted/needed for himself. I suppose it made the final decision to take Lucifer on more clear. It was something he felt like he had to do. I therefore see him fulfilling his so called "destiny" by saying yes to Lucifer, but exerting "free will" and strength by being able to defeat him.

Arghhhh. More head hurting!

<333

[midnightheir.livejournal.com]

Re-watching 5.03 Jess!Lucifer alludes to waht we learn in 5.20 and 5.22 IE the deck was always stacked against Sam and most of his life where he thought he was 'free' he actually wasn't. I guess he also probably stacked the deck against the other psykids too.

I'd take from that that the boys were always meant to win out and find a way through that didn't end with them as vessels. If it was inevitable then the angels wouldn't need to work so hard manipulating the chess pieces.

From a meta and writer POV Dean has always been touted as the human foil and the mouthpiece for a Humanist view.

I hope that helps.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. Thank you. And the fact that it was "stacked against" Sam most of his life is testament to what he was able to do at the end.

I'd take from that that the boys were always meant to win out

Which speaks to me of a set destiny. That it seemed like they were on the path to become vessels, but really their actual destiny was to defeat them and save the world. That everything that happened to them was to prepare them for the moment when they had the inner strength to defeat their respective angels.

Ack. I don't even know if that makes sense. Perhaps only in my head. :)

Thanks hun. I love "Dean is the human foil and mouthpiece for a Humanist view". Above it all the "humanness" of Sam and Dean is their strength.

xx

[midnightheir.livejournal.com]

It does make sense but allow me to confuse you some more!

Yes it does speak of a destiny but it isn't the prophecised one (sorry for bastardisation of the human language). Unless there were multiple readings of a singluar hymn sheet then I don't think it was THE destiny that Show!angels were touting. SPN has a very narrow view of the world due to our protags but one could wonder that if Sam had stayed dead, Jake had kept his title then would it have been Bobby and Dean stopping Jake!Devil? What the Winchesters achieved strikes me as being far more fluid than what we had presented to us by Lucifer, Zacheriah et al.

Yip, somewhere Kripke says that it's always been about the humans, the human heart and the brothers. A comic con panel I think but it is out there and Dean's role has always seemed to be that of the foil, and it doesn't rob him of anything since humanity and humans were always meant to be the heroic aspect of the show. /tangent.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It does make sense but allow me to confuse you some more!

Hee! Please do. :)

Yes it does speak of a destiny but it isn't the prophecised one

Yes and this is the thing that fascinates me. Whether they fulfilled THE prophecy (their so called destiny) that was always "meant" to be, or they altered the course of events and thus created new destinies (or rather outcomes). The angels were touting and I got the sense hoping for a certain outcome (Mike v Lu or Sam v Dean), and probably totally believed this would come to be but the very nature of Sam and Dean being human changed the course of events.

but one could wonder that if Sam had stayed dead, Jake had kept his title then would it have been Bobby and Dean stopping Jake!Devil?

Oh wow! Now that does do the head in. It's interesting though because the sense is that Sam was always destined to be Lu's vessel. Or to turn dark side. He was the the "boy king" after all. Though if Jake had won (with Dean not bringing Sam back), then maybe he wouldhave been capable of opening the cage and being Lu's vessel. And thus being the one that Bobby and Dean needed to stop.

Ok. Yikes. My brain is hurting again! I don't think I can even compute that. :)

somewhere Kripke says that it's always been about the humans, the human heart and the brothers.

And I think he was true to his word with this ending. Human strength (of love, loyality, bravery etc.) won out in the end. (though again I use the word "won" loosely).

Oh boy! I'm probably spouting rubbish again, but it;s kinda fun.

Thanks for confusing my brain a bit more... :D

[midnightheir.livejournal.com]

It's not rubbish and this is fun!

The boy!king title came about in S3 didn't it? Thus it would have gone to whoever survived Wyoming and it would have worked out for Jake. If I'm remembering that wrong then disregard. Ava turned dark as did Jake. 'Going darkside' appears to be the inevitable MO of every psykid if we look at the evidence and not something solely for Sam.

Precisely the way they spoke about it and how they moved the goal posts, it's you Dean, *go check the notes* no wait you're a vessel *go check notes* yes THAT reads better. I know I'm engaging in a smidge of handwaving there but that is the sense I got. To make a reference to Whedon's Angel and the Shanshu prophecy it reminds me of that. They got a line or two of 'prophecy' but it was ambiguious open ended translation NOT hard and fast.

What I think the boys did was hack the system. They didn't fulfill the angel's prophecy and at the end even the angels went off sheet by utilising Adam. The boys changed teh field and Heaven had to play catch up as best they could.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! It is indeed fun. :D

Yes. Boy!King was season 3, first ep. So yep, Jake or even Ava could have possibly taken that title, Well, Girl!Queen maybe for Ava.. :)

What I think the boys did was hack the system.

Oh yes. I like that. They are the perfect hackers! :) And maybe the angels learned a thing or two from the Winchesters - they had to do something after all.

xx

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

It was always the angels talking about destiny. But God was keeping to himself and only seemed to intervene every time when this destiny was about to happen. Like he wanted to give the brothers the chance to fulfill their own chosen destiny, like choosing each other (family).(So maybe this was their real destiny.) They also now pay the price for that choice it seems. But I believe that God took Sam out of Hell. It wouldn't make sense if he didn't because he resurrected Castiel more than once. Why should he leave Sam down there? After all, all the decisions were made, actions taken, lessons learned...game over.

This is how I like to see it. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh I absolutely believe that God rescued Sam from Hell. :) It would make sense. They need some reward for their constant sacrifices after all. And Sam does not belong down there! (Though who knows where they'll take this! *g*).

The angels are the ones talking of destiny. As are the demons ( I think?) And cupid. It infiltrates the SPN universe so much. It fascinates me. And I suppose there's no right or wrong answer.

But I love hearing what other people think.

Thanks babe. <33

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I just had the funniest thought of our reality having a "Kripke God" trying to tie loose ends, trying to write a good story, hoping we will buy his writing....lololol. *cough* Sorry, my sense of humour you know, kind of weird. *wink*

:D:D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! Well, you know what my sense of humour is like! :)

The idea of Kripke!God always brings a smile to my face. And I think he is a god for creating all us fangirls to tie up his loose ends!

xx

[redteekal.livejournal.com]

Apologies if I sound like I'm babbling here - just finished 5 hours of watching the last seven episodes of S5 (yes again ... okay like the fourth time at least) with a friend who had yet to see them.

I like thenyxie's take on it. But I also like the question Cas poses to Dean "What do you want - peace or freedom?"

Personally I think it sucks out loud that if you choose peace you lose freedom. The peace the Supernatural verse proposes is not really peace in my book but a poor imitation of it (a la The Matrix). I think real peace for the Winchesters is entirely codependent on freedom. Sam's destiny - to be Lucifer's vessel, Dean's destiny to be Michael's vessel and cue apocalyptic ending death battle.

The boys chose freedom (and Family - with a capital F because really it was that kind of Family that helped Sam take control back) and ultimately defied their destinies. Which is why in the end I believe God stepped in, because of the choices of the boys. And the ending was not a win situation at all for the boys - but it was for everyone else in their orbit and the planetary population. And for me as the all seeing viewer having those last five seconds I counted it as a win. For Dean and Sam and their POVs definitely NOT a win.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh wow! 5 hours! /o\ That's heavy duty SPN!

But I also like the question Cas poses to Dean "What do you want - peace or freedom?

Oh man. This is such a tough one. And really so very cruel as an outcome for the boys (and I love your comparison to The Matrix. I remember thinking "I think I'd rather live in the "fake" world and eat real steak rather than that stuff they were eating in the "real" world. Indeed, what price freedom?!).

So yes. No matter which way it's looked at - whether they fulfilled or didn't fulfil any sort of "destiny", they certainly didn't win anything. Ok. Maybe some sort of "freedom", but as you point out. Ay what cost.

Any news on whether we can plug into a projector to screen stuff? I can organise some vids on my shiny new computer if so. Quality will probably be better if we can do that.

[yourlibrarian]

I think annieshow put it quite nicely, which was that Sam was victorious by embracing his "otherness" to beat Lucifer, and Dean was victorious by saying no to Michael, retaining his humanity, and thus helping Sam take control.

So I would go the free will route because, let's face it, how many examples can we see around us of people who never overcome their innate weaknesses? I don't think there's anything destined about that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. Ultimately their "humanness" won out. Which was something Kripke often mentioned. I remember reading an interview ages ago (or it might have been a con report or something), where he talked about the show not being about Sam's "powers". It wasn't about turning Sam into a "super" hero. It was always about them being human. Which, now I think more about it, is what the end finally showed. Sad, but true to his plan.