A question of comfort.

[ash48]

This has been haunting me. Of everything that was shown and said in 7.01 this, for me, was the most unsettling.



Lucifer saying..."Hi, Sam - long time no spooning".

It's seems like such a strange thing to say, but wow... what a thing to say.

Spooning, to me, is an act of comfort and security. It's one of my most fav things. To wrap up, or be wrapped in, someone you love and care about.

It's why I actually had trouble understanding what he said at first. Spooning? But that's so personal and...

Oh.


My initial image was of Lucifer spooning Sam. The thing I find so unsettling about Lucifer wrapping himself around Sam is that it makes such a mockery of comfort and security. There's just something about that that makes me shiver.

It also puts them in bed together, which suggests a whole HEAP of things. I don't know if we were supposed to draw that conclusion (non con/rape) but I went there I have to say. The comment was just too pointed for me not to.

I then wondered if he may have been referring to this scene in Free to be You and Me, when he pretended to be Jessica. (?)



It's almost spooning. Not quite, but I wondered if he was, in fact, referring back the first time they made contact? When he was in bed with Sam, pretending to be Jessica.

I wonder how many times Lucifer pretened to be Jessica in the pit? Or Dean? Mary? John? Someone that Sam could gain comfort from...but ultimately didn't. *sniff*

It really brought home to me just how alone Sam actually was. And not just tortured. Comforted. I wonder if he came to rely on Lucifer for comfort in some twisted way? Or found the spooning/comfort the worst kind of torture?

I may be reaching a bit far here, but I do think the spooning comment was in reference to something that was occurring in the pit regularly.

And did you notice Sam's massive flinch in that scene? Spoke volumes of how damn terrified Sam was.

(there's gotta be fic out there on this.? The idea of Sam hurting and then being comforted by Lucifer.
OH SAM! :(( )

Comments

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

In one of my stories, I referred to that Lucifer!Jess scene as a "violation" and meant it very much like that, as I think it was meant to be. And yeah, I read that "no spooning" comment in exactly the same way, and I think it was meant to be read that way.

It was so much more unsettling than if they'd come right out and been more explicit. So much more raw and visceral than the CGI flames engulfing our poor Sam.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I never really made that connection between Lucifer!Jess and that level of violation before now. Just playing on Sam's raw emotion like that is bad enough, let alone any suggested non-con.

Argh.. It certainly is so much for unsettling just by giving little hints rather than stating it outright. It's also clever, because by not saying it it leaves it open to interpretation.

*hugs* our boy.

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I think he was referring to non-con stuff in the cage but I also think he was referring to both he and Sam being smushed together riding around in Sam's body. I'm not sure which is a bigger violation. How long did Lucifer ride around in Sam in the cage? Was it until Cas ripped his body away or did Lucifer get out right away? I definitely think that Lucifer would get off on head games even more than meat hook kind of torture. He'd want Sam in good enough shape to mess with him for an eternity. Sam was pretty much the entertainment. He was also human so he was a good target for Lucifer's hate of humans. In a twisted way, Sam was also company in the cage after Lucifer had been in solitary confinement for so long. The whole situation was beyond sick. Who knows how Adam and Michael figured into the equation.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. Sharing the same body. Urgh. I hadn't thought of that in that context, but yes.

I suppose we can imagine all sort of scenarios (and I know lots of fic have explored that - for both Sam AND Dean's time in hell) but to have it so blatantly stated in canon.

Knowing just a smidgeon of what happened to Sam makes it even harder knowing Adam is down there still. I really hope they address the fact that Sam would know what Adam is experiencing and therefore would want to do something to get him out.

Personally, I find the time down there hard to fathom. I thought 40 years for Dean was hard enough, but over 100 for Sam? I just can't even.

[phx69.livejournal.com]

I suspect it is as close to a hint of what went on in hell as any. Did you see how terrified Sam is of Lucifer? I think it referred to one of Sam's violations in hell. Unfortunately non-con has been practiced throughout the history of warfare as a way breaking a man.

Poor kiddo.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, That flinch... and his eyes. :(

I know fanfic deals with the non con aspect often, but for canon to hint at it also just makes it all the more.... idk, painful or something.

It's the idea of cuddling/spooning/mock comfort that just seems to add salt to the vicious wound.

[phx69.livejournal.com]

Exactly - and Lucifer's insinuation that it was his right. It makes the whole idea of a rape even more horrifying. The idea that afterwards, your attacker sticks around.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*shivers*

(I had to including and icon of secure comfort).

[phx69.livejournal.com]

I think Dean needs to give his little bro a big hug :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

True.... Um... the best I can offer is this one. Though it's not exactly a hug...(still one of my fav icons though *g*)

(I'm hoping we get a little bit in the way of comfort in eps ahead. Though, show doesn't really do comfort. :(( ).

[phx69.livejournal.com]

Me too! I like that icon :P

[geckoholic]

I've been trying NOT to think about this. *wimpers* OH SAM.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I know. It's definitely nicer to *not* think about it. (But of course, you know me. And that damn line has been on my mind ever since it was uttered...)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh hi you! <333

Oh yes. I admit to not thinking about it too hard in the past but that line really cements it.

*sob*

[bowtrunckle.livejournal.com]

OH. D: D: D: I'd thought that comment was a bit strange, but the literal implications never occurred to me (DUH). Now I can't help but think about poor traumatized Sam. Oh no. *sob hiccups*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I know. *sniffles*

For me it's that combination of both - hurt followed by false comfort. :(((

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

That was a great line. So creepy. And oh yeah, they meant it.

Jareds flinch is a thing of beauty.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

They meant it then? :(( *sob* So traumatising.


Jareds flinch is a thing of beauty.

I am glad I'm not the only one who thought so. :)

[destina.livejournal.com]

The show's been down this road with the rapey hints with Dean and Alistair and numerous others before, so it actually never occurred to me to take the comment any other way.

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Agreed---and with Meg and Ruby too. Everyone gets it in SPN hell apparently. I saw this remark as consistent with that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I know. :( It's the combination of that type of hurt followed by false comfort that I find so disturbing and heart breaking.

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

Yeah false comfort is the worst. I still want to barf when I think of a certain movie scene in which ... ack I can't even TYPE it, and it's been >10 years since I saw it. But let's just say false comfort + a slow death figured prominently.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh no no.. you can't do that.... I HAVE to know now which movie..

like seriously

it will bug me because I am trying to think if I've seen it...

hint?

[dodger-winslow.livejournal.com]

I took it as a reference to the scene between Lucifer!Jess and Sam in bed that we saw in S5. And also as an hint that what Sam is going through right now is NOT still happening in the pit, but rather is an intrusion of his Hell memories marrying up to his FEARS about still being in the pit.

And I took it this way because, had Sam still been in the pit with Lucifer this whole year passing, Lucifer would not likely have greeted him with a twist on a phrase that indicates they have not seen each other for some time ... Lucifer seeing Sam every single moment of every day, even if Sam has not seen HIM, if Sam really is still in the pit.

I can, however, very easily see this greeting to be something Sam's mind, under the pressure of fears he might still be in the pit and the last year has just been a Luciferian game, might create for him as Lucifer's likely greeting should they see each other again after a year having passed since Sam spooned Lucifer-not-Jess in S5. His mind aware, on a subconscious level, that Sam is not still in the pit and thus creating for him a greeting that reflects Sam and Lucifer have not seen each other for some stretch of time ... that contradiction between what Lucifer says and what he might REALLY say, were he really in the room and had they been together in the pit this whole time instead of L in the pit and Sam on Earth serving as either a glitch in the matrix or as an intentional red flag actively thrown up by his subconscious, trying to communicate to Sam through his own fears, that "Hey, dude, if you were still in the pit it wouldn't have been a long time since he saw you, now would it?"

That would be my interpretation of the line, based on what I take to be the most likely origin of the reference (given we've seen on-air spooning by Sam and Lucifer-not-Jess and canon referencing canon is always the Occam's Razor option for demonic snark ... or any snark, for that matter), and given that it is a story-telling trope that an illusionary state of existence is always revealed by the protagonist spotting "errors" in the logic of the illusion as it relates to either the illusion itself or to what he knows, without the capacity to corrupt his faith in knowing, is true.

So just as Dean broke free of the Djin's illusion of happy world by spotting glitches in the matrix that led him to the conclusion he could break free of the illusion by killing himself in a way he knows would really kill him were he not trapped in an illusion rather than experiencing a true reality; so also do I interpret that Sam's mind is trying to feed him contradictory clues to break him free of the grip his fear has over him, but can only do so by feeding him clues within the language of his hell memories, as those hell memories are the illusionary reality in which Sam is currently trapped.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey.

Yes yes. I totally agree that Sam is not actually still in the pit. The fact that this is Sam's mind conjuring this up makes it that even more disturbing. That THAT would be the first thing out of Lu's mouth. That the "memory" of false comfort is foremost in his mind.

So yeah. That would be either Sam remembering his first meeting with Jess OR memories of other moments of spooning in the pit. I feel like it's the latter, but it could be either I suppose.

so also do I interpret that Sam's mind is trying to feed him contradictory clues to break him free of the grip his fear has over him, but can only do so by feeding him clues within the language of his hell memories, as those hell memories are the illusionary reality in which Sam is currently trapped.

Oh yes. I love this. And it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next ep (assuming they pick up where they left off). I'm thinking also that (maybe!) Sam's bandaged hand may be the clue (to himself) of what is real and not. If it's bandaged he's in reality, if it's not he's helluncinating. Just my little fantasy at the moment. I'm keen to see if it will play out like this. Probably not, but the bandage has to mean something I reckon.

Thanks for thinky thoughts hon.
<3

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Well, they did always sorta allude to violent non-con with Alistair and Dean in S4. But it's so like Luci to take that to the most twisted level it could go, by offering non-con COMFORT. And especially in the face of those he loved. It's always been mental torture with Luci, that's what makes it perfect for these kinds of psych games with Sam's head now.

Honestly, it's unrealistic to think Hell would include the darkest most horrible torture and meathooks but yet not include that kind of twisted non-con torture.

And to think of it on another level, it's not Luci making that comment, it's Sam's head making it. So it's not simply a joke, it's a damaging memory that literally stuck with him (and the flinch shows his fear in the recollection of it).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Exactly... it's the non con comfort that I find so unsettling.

And yes. Just thinking about it, Luci is always so "sympathetic". It's like this mock caring - He's been like that from the beginning.

So it's not simply a joke, it's a damaging memory that literally stuck with him

yes yes. That's exactly how I see it too. It's the thing that Sam is probably most disturbed by and therefore it's the first thing that he puts into Luci's mouth. (words that is..)

Totally messed up..

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

*FLAILY HANDS*

FIC!!!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

YES! Thank you! I just read that and... omg... perfect. Ack.

Wow. It really hi the nail.
xx

[chemm80]

I think it could be any or all of those things (and in fact have already read at least one fic in which Lucifer pretended to be Dean cuddling Sam and then turned it against him, cue Sammy PTSD memories where he can't have Dean touching him, etc.).

Or it could just be simply snark, Lucifer talking about how "close" they were in the cage, intimate in any number of ways that don't necessarily have anything to do with sex. Guess we'll see. ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think the closeness in the cage is really interesting. I know the cage can be interpreted in many ways but for it to actually be a small, intimate cage is quite scary. So yeah.. they were quite literally on top of each other. Ack!

I like that interpretation - I always imagined it as being huge for some reason. It being really small is even scarier for some reason.

:(

[yaya-wr8t3r.livejournal.com]

The thought on Lucifer hinting to non con in the episode did cross my mind when he made that comment. It was disturbing and then the flinch made me flinch for Sam :( The thought that Lucifer really made the master of head games on Sam is so upsetting. I hope we see more of it just so we can get an idea of what he really went through and how alone Sam really was. Because I don't think we get that impact as we ought to when it comes to Sam and being in the cage. *hugs may Sammy* Gosh, now I can't get the flinch out of my mind =(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah..that flinch was so telling. I'm not at all spoiled for the next episode, but I think this will be the one that tells us the most. Show is good at hinting, not giving us the whole story, so it will be interesting to see what we get.

Can't wait. :D

[yaya-wr8t3r.livejournal.com]

I guess we can now take it as it was said. I mean you can't get more blatant than "you're my bitch in every sense of the word" and Lucifer constantly referring to Sam as his bunk mate *shivers* poor Sammy :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's part of what makes SPN so cool.

yes, yes I agree. I love that so much can be left up to our interpretations. I also love that writers can fill in the gaps. *hugs* writers. <3

(wheee Anime boys icon. I hope they make a new series).

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

To me it was the reminder of the last time Lucifer appeared to Sam in Sam's head which was the Jessica dream. I've always thought Luci prides himself on NOT being a 'lowley' demon, not being the "rip 'em to shreds" kind of artiste that Alistair was - Luci still considers himself an angel, which he is of course, but also that physical torture is somehow far below him.

So, quite honestly it reminded me of not only that scene, where he's in Sam's head so in his dreams, but also that scene where he first enters Sam's body and taunts him about just how many people have watched and manipulated him his whole life, it wouldn't surprise me if Luci hadn't at some point tormented Sam with images of Jessica and most likely Dean being part of that too - always.

I'm not 100% sure though if Lucifer is STILL in Sam's dreams like before or if now Sam is so disturbed, his soul so ripped and shredded that he now just imagines that where ever he goes Luci will always have instant access to his thoughts and memories. I hope to god they don't pull a "Sam IS still in the pit the whole season and maybe last too is just another Lucifer creation to torment Sam" thing, because that just won't make me happy at all.

Anyway, mostly I hope they just keep dropping these kind of hints, it's certainly gives more scope to wonder at a million possibilities than be told one truth.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I love the distinction you've made here between Lucifer and Alistair. The way they would have tortured. Alistair = physical and Luci = mental. *bounces* that's awesome. It also matches the brothers. Dean = physical (hands on hunter etc.) and Sam = mental (emo hunter). Am I reaching? Hee..

And how interesting that Dean was tortured by a demon (in that he was meant to be an angel's vessel) and Sam was tortured by and angel (being the one who was destined for evil). Damnit. Ya got me all thinky here.

I'm pretty sure it's Sam being disturbed that's creating the images rather than Luci (somehow) invading Sam's dreams. Though I've re-watched that scene a few times now and man... if it's Sam is hellucinating this is brain is SO scrambled. It's some nasty stuff he's imaging.

Hmmm... could Lucifer still be in Sam maybe? Ack.

I really REALLY hope Sam is not still in the pit. I seriously doubt it. There's too much Dean POV for that to be the case. Unless he is also imagining Dean's hell (losing lisa and Ben).

ACK! Don't do this to me. I'm sure Show isn't this thinky. (Just us..*g*)

Thanks hun. I adore the Al/Luc comparison and I am feel that festering into some meta type thoughts down the track.

(ooh..a picspam/meta type comparison might well be in order. One day *g*)

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, the possible comparisons are just endless once you start.

Do you want me to go one step further and say "Sam saw the meat hooks in his hallucinations of hell because part of his torture was watching and re-watching Alistair and Dean?"

Nah, you don't need that pet theory running around too! - Hah!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ha! omg... totally. If Luci's all mental torture then he could totally have played on Sam's images of what Dean may be have suffered when he was in hell. That would have been a torture in itself.

I would love to think Show even considered this. That Sam didn't actually suffer any meat hook torture, it was purely Luci playing with his mind.

OOhh.. it's moments like these I wish I could write. ;)

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Round and around it goes doesn't it? Angels have always seemed to have the power of time travel, so maybe Lucifer actually took Sam to watch his brother break on the rack - and now I want to know exactly what that breaking point WAS - because now, the possibilities are endless and lost in endless time loops and self fulfilling prophecies - ah show, some days I love you too much and some days you just wear out my brain and I'm not sure you really mean to!

So looking forward to the next episode, really want to watch it early tomorrow but I don't think I'll find time, so I'm kind of hiding out again as usual.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

When they introduced time and memory travel they opened the 'verse up to all sort of stuff. They tell one story and it leaves all the others up to us. :)

Yeah. Not sure when I will get to watch either. Might be an evening viewing (so long after it's aired in the US) as hubby is out then so I can indulge. *g*

(Hee... I asked him if he wanted to watch it with me last week and he said he'd rather poke his eyes out with a sharp stick. Sheesh).