A query about 9.02 and other bits

[ash48]

Watched the ep again. :))

There was a LOT of sexual innuendo in the latest episode. From Crowley's " Can't wait to see Sam in stilettos and a leather bustier- really putting the S.A.M into S and M." to Sergeant Bates saying "I will spank your ass raw" (and D/s stuff that Abaddon said...).

I'm curious about this section:

Abaddon: So go ahead and play hard to get, and I'll peel off this "no demons allowed" tattoo and blow smoke up your ass.

Dean: ...I gotta tell ya, between you and me it's a horror show up there.

Abaddon: It can get worse. Because once I'm on top I'll make you watch - and I'll use your body.

I really wondered where they were going with this and then Abaddon seemed to change direction and started talking about killing babies.

Um...what exactly was Dean talking about? My first thought (and continuing thoughts) didn't go to a very nice place at all. A bit like the way Lucifer referred to possible experiences Sam had in the cage ("bunk buddy, "you are my bitch in every way"), was Dean referring perhaps to his time in Hell? Being, quite literally, fucked up? Or was it simply referring to how dark his soul and inner being is? I'm just curious about the choice of words. It's seriously dark if it's the former - which, when offering a demon and angel universe makes sense. (The reason for asking is because I was going to list all the sexual references in the ep and wondered if that should be included).




Speculation ahead....

I am also thinking that as we missed out on the (apparently) planned showdown between Michael!Dean and Lucifer!Sam - maybe we are heading for a showdown between Ezekiel!Sam and Abaddon!Dean? Now THAT could be very cool. Oh man...just thinking about how Jensen would play Abaddon...*thud* (I wonder if they'd even dare do that...).

And the more I ponder it, the more I really hope Zeke is "good" (using the term loosely as the interpretation of what is good is murky - especially we haven't really seen a "good" angel as such). We've already had "evil" not!Sam so "good" not!Sam would be a potentially fascinating contrast. The lines would be blurred and that would be interesting I think. And I honestly don't know how Sam would cope with another being using his body to do evil crap to other people. Doing "good" for other people would provide an interesting comparison - and maybe reverse the (potential) situation of Sam wanting to get rid of him. If Sam wanted to keep Zeke on board (and Zeke was happy to stay) how would Dean deal with that. What would the fall out be...

Zeke being able to tap into Sam's memories and thoughts is full on creepy - which would add to that exploration of the difference (or lack of) between being possessed by an angel or a demon. *guh* so many possibilities with this storyline. I love it.


Also:



Cool. I wondered why the first poster had Sam looking down. Now it's clear - this time it's Zeke. Hee...a poster for both the characters.

Comments

[suebsg9.livejournal.com]

I found what abaddon said to Dean very intresting of course why not eye another vessel I mean Dean was suppost to be Michaels meat suit so I am guessing he can hold any angel or pretty charged up demon. And I think it would be intresting twist is that here is Sam having angel in him since he was the brother who prayed first before Dean had angels save him from hell. But it would be intresting twist doubt happen though. And this is what bothers me about having Zeke in Sam is the fact well we know he is there and will save Sam and Dean in hunts. So really Dean can stand near the impala let Zeke do the work and take credit for it. I mean its not like we don't know they are not going to make it out alive anymore as long as zeke is riding sam; Dean has nothing to worry about. JMO

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking that Zeke can only come out when Sam is knocked out - which will get boring pretty fast if that's how they resolve them being in danger every time. I can't see them keeping Zeke in Sam for the whole season - for exactly the reason mention. It would be too easy to get him to do everything (much like having Cas around - they've had to find situations which meant he couldn't always get them out of trouble). If they did anything like I pondered above, I figure it would only be for an episode or two.

All that said, I have no idea on their planned direction - and really, I don't actually care what direction they take as long as they write interesting stories. :))

[linvro21.livejournal.com]

maybe we are heading for a showdown between Ezekiel!Sam and Abaddon!Dean?
YES PLEASE!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it be cool?! Dean would be even crazier hot with Abaddon inside him...

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

So interesting....Dean's horror show comment, not to mention every other line of dialogue that came out of his mouth during this episode. I haven't watched again yet, but on first watching, was really impressed that Dean seemed...sharp again. And mouthy. There is so much Season 1 & 2 in the way these first two eps have made me feel, angel plot notwithstanding. (I really like Zeke - wish Galactica's Helo could have stuck around longer - but don't have much use for the rest of the arc....)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

was really impressed that Dean seemed...sharp again.

Yeah. He was really on the ball during this hunt. Great plans and taking the lead like a pro. He was clearly unnerved by Abaddon, but he's faced demons in Hell so he knows how to stay cool. I liked Jensen's little tells that he was scared - reminded me of when he faced Meg in Shadow. All mouth - but clearly worried.

I hope they find a way to bring Tahmoh back. I liked his presence and it would be great to have Sam as Sam and him as Zeke together in a scene. Maybe in the future...;) (I figure the person he originally inhabited said yes to the possession so Zeke would go and find him again if he needed another vessel. So potentially we'll see him again *g*)

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

"Zeke being able to tap into Sam's memories and thoughts is full on creepy - which would add to that exploration of the difference (or lack of) between being possessed by an angel or a demon."

In the ep where Crowley killed Meg, she talked to Sam about knowing his innermost thoughts, so I don't see that there's a difference between the two possessions...except that Zeke is verbalizing the positive side of Sam's thoughts, which I thought was a cool way to let Dean see a part of Sam that Sam would never directly verbalize.

I don't want Dean to be possessed--he never has been, and I see it as integral to his character that he is too strong to be possessed, in addition to having the power (of love?) to make other characters through off their possession (John--Azazel, Bobby--demon, Sam--Lucifer, Cas--Naomi...) To me, that is the heart of Dean's character, his inner strength that he doesn't even realize he has.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

PS Can you post the 2 different posters side by side to show the difference? If that's not too much trouble...I don't remember the details of the first one...

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

Jared looks too skinny. I want to feed him, poor baby.

[fufaraw]

Thank you! Aware that it's absolutely none of my business, I've been sort of low-grade concerned that the big bulk-up in S4&5 was Jared providing visual appearance of Sam being steroidal on demon blood, and then losing weight since, till in S8 he reflected Sam's losing himself through the trials. I don't actually admire dedication to a role to the degree of a DiNiro or a Bale, and I really hope that's not what's happening.

But as I said, not any of my business.

[zubeneschamali.livejournal.com]

a showdown between Ezekiel!Sam and Abaddon!Dean?

I had that same thought! But she ran away so quickly when she realized there was an angel in town, I thought maybe it wouldn't be an even match-up. Lucifer and Michael were both angels, after all. But I would love to see Jensen play not!Dean like that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I thought maybe it wouldn't be an even match-up

Yeah, that crossed my mind. He seems more powerful than she does - though maybe if she came prepared or something?

I think I mostly would love to see Jensen play not!Dean. I'd love to see what he could do. All his alternatives (future!Dean, Demon!Dean, possessed by ghost!Dean and AU!Dean) were all great.

[galathea-snb.livejournal.com]

Ah, I would hate if Abaddon possessed Dean. For me Dean has always been the embodiment of humanity and as such it always felt significant to me that he has never been possessed in the show. I was never keen on a Michael!Dean and Lucifer!Sam price fight in the first place, because it would have reduced the brothers to simple vessels without an agenda of their own. So, no, I really don't want Abaddon to take over Dean.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Well, I admit my desire to see that is purely selfish - and not character driven. ;) I would love to see what Jensen would do with it (not necessarily Abaddon, but whenever he plays not!Dean it's always so good).

I wonder if him never being possessed is deliberate or if they've never found a story line for that. If they plan to keep him forever unpossessed then they'll avoid it at all costs (I bet they haven't really thought about it though...). He's been possessed by a ghost though (maybe not the same...)

I wasn't keen on a Michael!Dean and Lucifer!Sam price fight - I was dreading it actually. The scene from Sex and Violence was bad enough.

[bowtrunckle.livejournal.com]

so "good" not!Sam would be a potentially fascinating contrast...If Sam wanted to keep Zeke on board (and Zeke was happy to stay) how would Dean deal with that.

*eee* !!! :D I love this idea for a lot of reasons, but mostly bec. I feel like it would give Sam something to be proud about, something "good" that he feels would be useful (rather than trying to use demon blood drinking, which was "bad", for "good" or his psychic powers, which were "bad" bec. they were from Azazel, to save people) and it would also be his CHOICE, giving him some personal power. Sam needs so badly to get a reprieve from being the supernatural chess piece. Also, it would mess with Dean's head and I love it when Dean's world gets upended; it would make for interesting and hopefully unpredictable story telling, putting the characters in a new head space entirely. I'm going to adopt this idea and take it home and feed it pie and hot chocolate.

There was a LOT of sexual innuendo in the latest episode.

I noticed that straight away. I loved the tension between Dean and Abaddon; that scene was well played! I think your meta-ish thoughts about the implications of that dialogue are interesting. I just initially attributed it to the Dabb and his overall sexual tone. I was sort of peeved about Tracy (?) and how she just seemed not at all like a realistic hunter compared to the men (made up, beautiful, and looking like there would be no way she'd be able to behead a vampire let alone cut butter ... her outfit was a plot point, I guess, so she could seduce the vamp so that's that), all the demeaning talk about women (again), and the fact Tracy was talked about like she was an object (referred to in the 3rd person when she was standing RIGHT THERE and could've easily been given her own dialogue) in the presence of 3 men. I just want a capable, smart, independent, realistic-looking female hunter (ripe for spin-off territory). Sorry to vent, but the short is that I didn't think too much about the implications Dean-Abaddon dialogue as I was already annoyed, but now that you pointed it out .... hummm. Thanks. :)

this time it's Zeke. Hee...a poster for both the characters.

So cool! I love, then, that this version wasn't released until after the Zeke possessing Sam reveal. Has this take on the posted been confirmed by TPTB, JP, or JA?

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I just want a capable, smart, independent, realistic-looking female hunter...

THIS THIS THIS. And this.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I thought Dean's comment about it being a horror show up there was a little ambiguous too. Also thought it was interesting that Abbadon taunted him by asking if he'd ever heard a woman scream as he was pulling her guts out. Because given his stint in hell, I think he probably has.

LOVE Sam's broken wing shadow on the new poster!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - ambiguous is probably what they were going for. Makes me wonder if Abaddon knows Dean was in Hell. She should do...but gave no indication (I don't think).

The broken wings look great!

[alienat.livejournal.com]

maybe we are heading for a showdown between Ezekiel!Sam and Abaddon!Dean?

I'm not sure I would be happy with that. While it would be an amazing acting opportunity for Jensen, I'm watching for Sam, Dean and their personalities, and not for their possessed bodies.

At first I thought that what Dean said to Abbadon was a reference to his generally messed up mind. But now that you say it, he could have meant it in regards to the things that happened to him in Hell. We'll see if they expand on that further. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm watching for Sam, Dean and their personalities, and not for their possessed bodies.

Oh me too. I certainly don't want to see episodes and episodes of it. In fact, when I saw Sam as Zeke in the first ep I was very stressed that we'd be in for another half a season without Sam...;(( I am mostly interested in that because I'd love to see what Jensen would do. Jared has been given some great opportunities to be "other" - it'd be nice to see some stuff like that from Jensen. (not heaps mind you...)

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

There's more that's different with the poster besides Sam. The tagline in the original said Prepare for the Fall. This one talks about Hell reigning.

You know, Cas carved the enochian symbols on their ribs so angels couldn't track them. He should have carved the anti-possession tattoo mark on there too. Skin is so fragile.

The bit about being a horror show up there almost felt like there was dialog missing or something. It sort of came out of nowhere. After watching On the Head of a Pin and all the other scenes of demon torture we've had and the fact that there was so much riding on Dean breaking, I don't think there's much that wasn't done to him....and probably not a lot he didn't do after getting off the rack. Alastair basically said he had a lot of promise.

I don't trust Zeke, first because he's an angel and he's too into lying but like you said, what an angel might consider good and where that would mesh with Sam's goals, it's hard to say. It depends on whether Sam is still looking for redemption and what Zeke offers along those lines. Although we thought Sam's chat with Death about not being used to hurt anyone else partly meant Dean, I think Sam was also referring to his being the pawn of Heaven and Hell and everyone that they've lost since then plus all the associated fallout on earth. Tracy's comments about her parents were put there to reinforce that, I think.

[linvro21.livejournal.com]

Did you notice that the flower Crowley was holding in the first poster, has caught fire?

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

One other thought--when Abaddon says "Have you ever felt an infant's blood drip down your chin, or listened to a girl scream as you rip her guts out?" my first thought was, Dean has done the second one, that's not as much of a threat to him as Abaddon thinks--because would she know about his time in Hell? I'm thinking not...and I could see Dean's thoughts flashing to 'already done that, sister'--not that the idea of being possessed by her doesn't horrify him, but he's tougher than she realizes!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

He IS very tough. I think it certainly freaked him out though. One can only assume he still remembers what he did - and cutting people up was certainly one of them. He wouldn't want his body to be used like that (which I think might be a wake up call to what he let happen to Sam. We'll have to see if that plays out though).
xx

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Um...what exactly was Dean talking about?

I'm of the mind that your first thought was correct, and that the network censor types made them tone it down a bit.

I am also thinking that as we missed out on the (apparently) planned showdown between Michael!Dean and Lucifer!Sam - maybe we are heading for a showdown between Ezekiel!Sam and Abaddon!Dean? Now THAT could be very cool. Oh man...just thinking about how Jensen would play Abaddon...*thud* (I wonder if they'd even dare do that...).

YES. YES, PLEASE!! *falls to knees and begs like a dog*

ETA: Regarding the morphing poster, in addition to the changes to Ezekiel!Sam, his wing shadow, and the tagline, Crowley is different, too. His flame is larger than it was before . . . how 'bout that? Man, this new poster is intriguing on all SORTS of levels.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, the flame IS bigger. Huh!

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I think he meant the horror show was in his soul/brain and not in his actual ass, although the unfortunate word choice made me pause at first too lol.

My theory is Zeke jumps into Dean mid-season as a condition of getting out of Sam, so Zeke has ~the perfect vessel~ (foreshadowing) to lead the army into Heaven against Metatron. Totally random spec, but it sounds like something they would do to start the absolution of guilt for Dean doing what he did.

ETA: Any plot that had Sam being "happy" about getting his autonomy forcibly stolen from him would be, quite frankly, disturbing.

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking along the same lines re: Ezekiel. He really has manipulated his way into de facto control of two archangel vessels, hasn't he? I wonder if he has ambitions in that direction himself. Ezekiel!Dean leading the armies of Heaven against Metatron sounds really awesome.

Any plot that had Sam being "happy" about getting his autonomy forcibly stolen from him would be, quite frankly, disturbing. Agreed 100%.

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

Oh man, Jensen playing Abaddon would be AMAZING.

I like the subtle poster changes too. LOVE the broken wings effect - so cool!

I *really* hope they don't go with Sam wanting to stay as Ezekiel, though. Personally, I find that extremely squicky. Like, I can see Sam deciding that Zeke could do more good with the vessel than he can, and agreeing to let Ezekiel have it, but to me there's no possible way that's a good thing for Sam. That's basically a more horrific form of suicide.

And in general, regardless of Ezekiel's intentions, I feel like his means are unethical enough that I would have a hard time seeing him as purely good. He is using Sam's body and mind without consent, and altering Sam's mind to prevent him knowing about it. This is a *huge* and invasive violation of Sam's autonomy and personhood, and the fact that Zeke is willing to do this on a continuing basis makes me deeply uncomfortable with the notion that he might be perceived as a benign entity, no matter what his larger plans might be.

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

And in general, regardless of Ezekiel's intentions, I feel like his means are unethical enough that I would have a hard time seeing him as purely good. He is using Sam's body and mind without consent, and altering Sam's mind to prevent him knowing about it. This is a *huge* and invasive violation of Sam's autonomy and personhood, and the fact that Zeke is willing to do this on a continuing basis makes me deeply uncomfortable with the notion that he might be perceived as a benign entity, no matter what his larger plans might be. This! You put it much better than I could, but exactly along the lines I was thinking. good intentions, etc....

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

Dean: ...I gotta tell ya, between you and me it's a horror show up there.

Abaddon: It can get worse. Because once I'm on top I'll make you watch - and I'll use your body

I definitely took this as sexual as in she would actually 'top' using Dean's body, but also a double entendre as in she would fuck up his mind/soul as much as his body.

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

Yeah she was totally gonna go rape people. It was a very skeevy line! And intended to be, I think.

[celtic-forest.livejournal.com]

That dialog definitely made me do a double take both times I watched the episode. I mean, I think they had to be talking about how dark Dean's soul is, but Dean carried through on her mention of his ass by saying "up there". How is that not talking about his ass? For example, he could have said "in here" instead, but he didn't.

Did you notice that they had Dean's tattoo on upside down (or at least significantly rotated) in that scene? My guess is they had a new makeup person who assumed the pentagram was supposed to be inverted. I would have thought Jensen would have noticed, though - presumably he would have looked in a mirror after it was applied.

My prediction regarding Sam and Ezekiel is that shortly after Sam finds out about the possession he'll be in a situation where he has to decided whether to kick Zeke out immediately or allow him to use his angel power to save Dean's (or someone's) life. He'll choose to save Dean, which will make the betrayal/violation somewhat more complex than it had seemed.

Zeke is Dean's Ruby! (Minus the sex, unfortunately ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes "up there" rather than "in there" - it was the choice of words. It might be just my mind but it was..um...rather visual.

And yeah - the tat was wrong. Continuity should have picked that one up. I doubt jensen would be paying attention to the makeup (or, maybe he did notice but if they are running out of time they probably couldn't re-do it). Maybe it was deliberate - done to remind us that it's not real! :D (I need reminding sometimes).

And oooh yes. Keeping him in to save Dean - Sam making a decision like that could be interesting. Wow - messed up! :))

[stormcloude]

So it would be okay that Sam was non-con possessed by an angel as long as that angel turned out to be good?

It would have been okay if Michael non-con possessed Dean? It's okay that Castiel blackmailed Jimmy into being possessed because he eventually tried to choose the good side?

The more I see of this storyline, the more fandom's reaction really squicks me out.

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

*gives you PIE* ♥

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

Show is really getting a bit raunchy, yeah? Funny, I don't remember Abaddon being as crass last season. I liked her then, not so much now. Now she's just Crowley in a skirt.

I really wondered where they were going with this and then Abaddon seemed to change direction and started talking about killing babies.

I don't think this was a change of direction at all. Dean has proven he can withstand just about anything inflicted on himself. But Abaddon threatened to use his body and make him bear witness to the atrocities she committed. We all know how Dean was tormented by what he did in Hell. Now we're talking about the most innocent among us. That would scare him.

Rock On!
Alley

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Now she's just Crowley in a skirt.

Except much more interesting to watch. (IMHO)

I don't think this was a change of direction at all

Up until she mentioned the babies I felt like she was talking about sex. It could be read as she was not talking about that at all (which, could be the case and why I asked the question) or she was talking about both (sex and killing) - or started off talking about one thing (laying the seed) and then changed direction because following that line of thinking wouldn't have got passed the censors.

And yes. It would TERRIFY Dean is he knew his body was used to hurt other people. Which is ironic, considering he allowed Sam to be possessed. ;)

[phx69.livejournal.com]

I think you are reading way too much into the comment about blowing smoke up Dean's ass, lol! I do not think at all that she was being literal, but more about taking over his body. That was my immediate take on the comment. Kinda like when he tells someone he is so going to kick their ass, I doubt very much that during a beatdown he actually takes time to kick their literal ass, lol! The switch to babys threw me though as I thought she would think it more horrific for him to peel the skin off his brother, but I chalk that up to a writer losing his focus and going for what most people would find the most repulsive, and losing site of the Winchester character.

But after Dean's time in hell and purgatory, I do think he has a deep darkness in his soul that is kept on a leash only because he genuinely does want to help people. But, I do fear his biggest restraint is in the hands of Sam and if Sam had gone with Death, Dean would have become a cyclone of death and reckoning. The man does have has skills... my favorite Dean is when we get a glimpse into just how dangerous he is. The show doesn't give us that very often, often times playing his (or Sam's) success in a situation to luck or outside influence (I think they enjoy bloodying Jensen up just a bit too much at time ;P), but when they do let him kick ass, I get chills!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think you are reading way too much into the comment about blowing smoke up Dean's ass

Ha! Well I am known for over thinking stuff! The thing about this section of dialogue in particular is Dean's response of saying "up there" instead of "in there". After reading some of the responses here looks like there is a mix of interpretations - most being that he was referring to what happened in hell, even if she wasn't.

And threatening to peel of Sam's skin would have certainly freaked him (exactly what the angel last week threatened). If the writer mixed her previous lines with anything to do with Sam the connections would have been...well, let's just say fandom would have a field day...;D

Oh and yes yes. I love dangerous Dean. I love smart, kickass, dangerous Dean. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ha! So many possibilities! Maybe with an angel in his blood Sam will be able to cure demons much quicker. He won't know why he's able to do that of course.

Sam and Dean fighting at any time is hard to watch. :( I don't think I really want to see their vessels going head to head. Though the level of fury Sam might have when he finds out might mean we'll see them fight as actual brothers. whaaaaa