Jensen interview

[ash48]

Note: There are spoilers in the interview. Under the cut are spoilers for the Mark's affect on Dean only - and minor speculation.

Jensen's kindly given an interview to The Winchester Brothers on Winchester Radio recently (I suggest you avoid the comments in the above link if you want to avoid some nastiness. I accidentally saw some and decided to respond. I KNOW I shouldn't have done but dammit I was steaming). I actually read a transcript of the interview (and I've just seen that stir_of_echoes has created one also <3) rather than listen to it. I started to listen but found it a little…er…messy (which might have been because of nerves maybe).



I think missyjack said it best when she called Jensen the ultimate Dean!girl. :) And so he should be. Listening to him talk about Dean is wonderful and insightful. I love how supportive he is of the character and it has given me some insights to how he goes about playing him. I particularly love how he includes his experiences in Purgatory as something that drives Dean. We never see that (unfortunately!), but it's wonderful that Jensen's using it for inspiration.

It's also interesting to hear his take on Sam. Some of it I found hard to accept and I didn't agree with quite a bit of it, but I did find it interesting. I know that Jensen probably doesn't spent a lot of time analysing Sam's character (if at all), so it's not surprising that his comments are based on Dean's experience of Sam and not how he sees Sam fitting into the overall picture. Which makes sense because as an actor you are totally focused on your own character (I'm hoping Jared will do a similar interview because I'd love to hear his insights into Sam).

I wasn't totally thrilled by the pitch of some of the questions (in fact, it was a little disappointing that the interviewers weren't more objective and even handed with the questions) but there were some great questions that allowed Jensen to really talk about his character.

Some interesting comments he made:

Obviously, Dean is willing to go all-in and keep the family together, and keep the brothers moving down the road and it seems that more and more, Sam is willing to cash out and he’s not willing to put his life on the line the way that Dean is.

Not going to deny that this comment really took me aback. I have no idea what "cash out" means but if this is the Sam we are going to be seeing in the future it might well be the final straw for me. I'm not quite sure what Jensen's take on 8.23 was but Sam was completely ready to put his life on the line for the greater good. And er….end S5? Though I will accept that Jensen might be channeling Dean and thinks that Sam won't lay his life on the line for Dean. Which is crazy of course, but it's something Dean would absolutely be feeling (though if Show decides that actually Sam WON'T lay his life on the line for Dean then it's not the show I originally started watching so it'll be all over red rover for me).


That’s a tough pill for Dean to swallow, and I think the only way he’s dealing with it is by not dealing with it.

That's a really interesting observation and I think that's definitely true. I love that he mentioned this because I've wondered if Dean not acknowledging what Sam has suffered is part of him just not wanting to deal. We've seen Dean shut down more and more I think.


The mark of Cain has given him a simplicity in his thoughts that’s allowing him to ignore the complexity of their relationship right now and focus on the prize, which is Abbadon at this point

Fair call..but…um….Abbadon is the prize? I thought Gadreel was on the top of Dean's list? Not sure exactly how Addadon became top priority. Maybe it's because it's what Crowley wants? I'm trying to remember why Addadon is such a thorn in Dean's side - considering she hasn't really featured much this season (or last for that matter). Curious.


So, I think the line between black and white is becoming almost dangerously clear, the grey areas are becoming less and less as far as Dean is concerned.

Awesome! The Mark is going to be really interesting for Dean. Seeing a cold (almost soulless) Dean is going to give Jensen some great stuff to work with and will be great to watch.


Yeah, for a long time there were a lot of different storylines going on, mostly revolving around Sam, and what the story was doing to Sam although a lot of it, it could be said was being seen through Dean’s perspective, the story was always, kind of about Sam and what was going on internally with him

Pretty much what we all know and have said for a while. Though not sure how "what was going on internally with him" means as we don't get a lot on what's going on with him internally. I mean, we get the angst but we don't get to see the result of all the crap that happens to him. But I get it - from Dean's perspective stuff is ALWAYS happening to Sam (and my god it really is!) and I kinda get the sense that Jensen is happy for the "stuff" is now going to be happening to him.

Which I'm pretty darn excited by too. He also talks about the roles reversing - which makes me wonder if we'll get to watch Dean's story through Sam's eyes now? I think that would be pretty cool if handled right.


Yeah, Sam’s a real selfish asshole is what it boils down to (laughs)

It is true, Sam seems to be a little preoccupied and maybe it’s a little brother thing. Maybe he’s

“You’re my big brother you can figure it out yourself.”

But that’s a contrast to the way Dean thinks as in, “I’m the big brother and I have to protect my little brother from harm.” That’s kind of been his creed for as long as he can remember so I think that they both kind of come at it from different angles. Sam is more willing to allow for things to happen as they happen and it’s a Sam-centric world in his mind, and I think it always has been and I think it’s been a Sam-centric show for a long time

Yeah. I probably should just let this go. I know Jensen said some of this in jest but if even Jensen thinks Sam's an asshole what the hell hope do any of us have that think he's not. *sigh* And Sam is Sam-centric? Yeah, saving the world was all about Sam. Trying to trade himself for Dean in hell was clearly all about Sam. Sam continuing to hunt, save people, listen and help people is only because Sam thinks about himself. Clearly. (I know I am coming across as some sort of bitter Sam!girl, but I seriously must be watching a different show if, after everything, Sam is still considered selfish). I am aware that Jensen is talking about the characters and it makes sense that that is what Dean would be thinking - but even then Dean KNOWS Sam is not selfish - he's seen first hand the things Sam has been willing to do for others. I suppose it's fair that Jensen might think that though - considering a lot of fandom thinks the same.

What does come across clearly is Jensen wanting something more for his character. And I don't blame him. When we look back and think about everything that has happened to Sam it's pretty epic. Jared has been able to play all sorts of characters - many different versions of Sam. Jensen hasn't really had that opportunity, so I think Jensen has a right to be feeling pretty over Jared getting all the cool stuff. Jensen plays "dark" very well (end!verse Dean is still one of my fav Deans) and I think the Mark is going to give him some great material to work with. Oooh, we still might get to see 2014!Dean emerge. That would be wicked if they somehow gave us that future version of Dean - what a cool tie in.


Whether he protects him because of the fear of loneliness, whatever the reason is, I don’t think Dean sits in his bed and psychoanalyses himself all that much.

Definitely. And interestingly it's coming across exactly like that. WE do! But Dean doesn't. Even non-Mark Dean wouldn't contemplate his motivations too much. He just is.


Winchester Radio: To that end, are there any decisions that Dean has made over the years that you could revisit and possibly alter in some way?

What would be the issue if you were to do so?

Jensen: Not invite Gadreel into Sam. That would be number one on the list.

*phew* I'm glad we're on the same page about that. And he, like me, understands that what Dean did is all part of the story telling. This isn't Jensen saying he didn't what that for Dean, but rather knowing that Dean would want do-over on that one decision.


I have to say this interview hasn't given me a lot of hope for the storyline exploring Sam being possessed against his will (not that Jensen would know or possibly worry about). It's just not on their radar. I probably have to accept that if I want to continue to enjoy the season (and series actually). I just have to accept that, much like last season, the reasons for why Sam is behaving in a certain way is not an issue - just that what he's doing is enough to create a reaction from Dean. And now that the story is moving to the Mark (and Dean changing because of it), there will be even less focus on Dean feeling/learning/growing from anything he's done. In fact, Sam's attitude is likely to be driving him toward that darkness. Sam will just have to move on (*fandom cheers*) and forget that the first part of the season even happened for him. I could be wrong and they may well integrate Sam's past experiences into his story arc, but I can't see it. Though I suspect we'll be watching Sam fight for his brother - which will be cool too. At this point it's the only thing I can imagine happening that will calm down all the hate.

It's so wonderful that Jensen gave up his time to give this interview. It's a shame that it will (already has) created even more of the Sam v Dean crap. I ranted on tumblr about all that so I won't repeat it here. Needless to say I am totally over it and I think I might be joining fellow fans and remaining off fandom sites until the storyline allows people to actually behave civilly.

That said, I am more than happy to discuss the interview as long there's no nastiness - for either Sam, Dean or Jensen.

Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm really surprised you haven't noticed that -- it just seems obvious to me

Well, you know, I have to say I hadn't connected those dots. With your explanation here I'm surprised I didn't either. I mean, I did see that change in Dean and I loved it. I saw it more as a resetting back to and earlier version of Dean and I didn't really connect that to his time in Purgatory. I think because once the Purgatory part of the story was done in S8 it was hardly referred to again and I didn't continue to give it much thought on how it shaped Dean from S8 onwards. My "unfortunately" comes from a place of wishing we had got to see some more of that. I loved the idea of Purgatory being "pure" for Dean - which I think was a great moment in understanding Dean a lot more. Aside from him actually making that remark I didn't feel we got a lot more on what that exactly meant to Dean. But yes, I can totally accept that it was Dean's Pugartory experience that's shaped him the last 2 seasons and not just a random "resetting".

On another note, part of the problem in the Dean/Sam current relationship, is that Sam is changing the paradigm between them

Yes. I think it's a good point and one that the Show is definitely using to create the tension. If Sam came out clearly and said what he means or that how (and why) things are changing for him it would make it a lot easier on Dean (and probably fandom because their frustration is spilling out onto Sam for not being clearer). I think because I see a clear picture of why Sam is behaving this way (and I admit that I tend to do this more easily for Sam than I do for Dean) I have been confused about the backlash that Sam has received. But show is manipulating the tension and the relationship so I know it's all part of that.

Just off the top of my head, it could be part of the reveal in the finale or the last few episodes -- what exactly Sam has meant specifically by what he has told Dean.

Yes, I think they may be saving part of the "reveal" or drama with Dean being clearer on what Sam means (and I'd say Sam being more sympathetic maybe to why Dean makes certain choices). It's hard to know, as so little has been revealed about where this is all heading.

Do you also think Jesus sacrificing himself to save the world and the people in it, to use that as a handy comparison, does not put Jesus at the center of the Christian religion?

Ah, it looks like my interpretation (or understanding) of what Sam-centric means differs. I don't deny that much of what happens in SPN is Sam-centric - as in Sam's drives the plot with all the "stuff" that happens to him (and I think the emotional story line is Dean-centric as a counterbalance). But in terms of Sam himself I thought that referred to him doing things for selfish reasons. Sure he's a the centre of saving the world (though I would argue that both Sam and Dean were at the centre of that - much like the breaking of the 66 seals) but I don't read that as doing that for himself. If centric purely means being the "centre of" then sure. In the context it was said it sounded like Sam's whole world centres on himself - which I don't think it does at all. If that's the case though, I would say that Dean is very Dean-centric also (all people are probably).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will look at Dean more with the knowledge of how Purgatory has shaped him from know on.

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Sure he's a the centre of saving the world (though I would argue that both Sam and Dean were at the centre of that - much like the breaking of the 66 seals) but I don't read that as doing that for himself.

Nah, that was Sam. Dean was reduced to being his helpmeet, his little helper. Helper is not the same as doer and main actor. It's different than the Seals - since Dean actually precipitated all that -- and their entire backstory of the previous years led them both to that point. Dean started it and Sam finished it.

But back to the point in question, of course Dean has long standing, deep seated issues about being the one left behind, the one who didn't get the life, everything he does and owns, etc., is secondhand. And here he goes out to be the one to close the gates only to fail and see Sam, without discussing it beforehand, take the role over from him.

Post-Purgatory, when he was so sure in his warrior abilities, when he wanted to test himself against the Trials and recapture some of the purity of the experience of Purgatory, that really wounded his amour-propre. Dean put himself forward for that role in a way we never usually see him do. That's completely different than their usual casework, or finding out you have a destiny, etc.

So, there has got to be some issues here, even for Dean. And the end of that episode dwelled strongly on that note, like a minor key leaving off a song with a feeling of lingering unease. Though Dean, like usual, quashed whatever negative conscious feelings he had and moved forward, burying all the messy stuff. If it were a completely different show, with a different relationship between the boys, it would be easy to see Dean convincing Sam not to finish the Trials as a malign move on his part. So, yeah, I can see Dean, and then Jensen, while channeling Dean, thinking that it is selfish on Sam's part -- like he has got to be the one to be at the center of the universe, to save the world, to close the gates of Hell, etc. It always has to be about Sam.

People on your friend's list complain a lot about Dean needing Sam too much. Obviously there is a lot of truth to that. But OTOH, when Dean has aspired to other things for himself, recently such as closing the gates or a friendship with Benny outside of Sam, Sam has quashed those things for him completely. Sam taking over the Trials left him with the all too familiar *important* role of "help Sam" do his job, once again that's his entire purpose in life. So he did that. All too well, perhaps. And now Sam, without telling Dean precisely what he did wrong, doesn't want to be his brother any more -- only to work with him professional to professional.

Since Dean is an expert compartmentalizer and quasher of anxiety -- he needs to be in order to keep moving forward all the time -- it's got to be bewildering to him. Because if you don't stare the anxiety in the face, you don't ever explore what it is telling you.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Well, I have to say I never interpreted that as Sam "taking" the trials off of Dean. That's the first time I've heard that actually (and wow, I can see that creates even more ammunition for the Sam hate. If it's believed that Sam somehow stole Dean's glory…um…wow…that has never crossed my mind. And damn, that's depressing. So it's actually true that Sam can't do anything that looks heroic or non self centred without it being turned around to actually be a deliberate attempt at hurting Dean or being self centred D:).

I was 100% sure Sam ended up doing the trials because he needed to save Dean's life. Neither boys looked liked they were in a position to hold a discussion about who should kill the hellhound when Sam was presented with the perfect opportunity - so (bravely and non-selfishly) took it. I was under the impression that Sam accepted Dean would be the one to do the trials (not happy about it because he saw this as Dean wanting to die - hence the "light at the end of the tunnel speech), but I never got the sense that Sam had planned to do them. In fact, I felt he was upset it ended that way).

I accept how Dean not doing the trials affected him though. I think that was a huge blow to him and possibly shaped his character going into S9 also. I'd hate to think that Dean only stopped the trials in the end because he felt like he should have done them. Is that what others think? I'd say the relationship is even more messed up than I thought if that's the case.

I can see Dean, and then Jensen, while channeling Dean, thinking that it is selfish on Sam's part -- like he has got to be the one to be at the center of the universe, to save the world, to close the gates of Hell, etc. It always has to be about Sam.

Hmmm, it makes Dean sound like a petulant child. Makes me think of him stamping his foot and saying "why does he get to kill himself for the world. It's not fair!" It's true that neither are coming out of this looking particularly mature (ironically as Carver insists this is about them maturing), but I'd hate to think Dean thinks that way of Sam (though maybe that's why he brought Sam back against his will - so he could watch him suffer. That'll teach you for being the centre of the universe!! Ha…of course I don't believe that. I have to confess I am still reeling from your suggestion that Sam took the trials off of Dean without a discussion. Maybe I have interpreted what you are saying incorrectly. Sorry, if that's the case).

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Hmm, well I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I never said Sam conspired or planned to take the Trials off of Dean; just that it happened and it shocked him because it was so unexpected. I guess I'll have to watch that episode again to refresh my sense of what I think is going on with Sam -- but Dean's disappointment and let down feels palpable to me in that scene.

In fact, in a case of Supernatural narrative reflecting real life, it pretty much parallels what Jensen recently said about his disappointment about his story lines failing to amount to anything which I quoted elsewhere in this thread. And this, in fact, let's us know why Dean's disappointment feels so palpable in that scene -- because Jensen has obviously been feeling it for a while now.

After that, a fan asked about Jensen's opinion on Dean's storyline (http://kelios.livejournal.com/67626.html)--or rather his lack of one. I was rather surprised when he not only agreed with her that there were problems with Dean's storyline but also by how open and passionate about it he was. I was expecting a much more toned down response, but I have to say I'm both pleased and saddened by his frustration with where the writers/showrunners have taken his character, and by his willingness to express that to us.

Jensen talked at length about his frustration with being constantly 'teased' by the story--starting Dean down a path and then pulling back, over and over. He said very plainly that he wants Dean to go somewhere--"just give me something to work with, I'll take him there!" He mentioned that for the first time, he had both called and emailed Jeremy Carver about Dean and the issues he's been having with Dean's story always being dropped, and that he had set up a meeting for himself and Jared with Jeremy and the writers. He also emphasized that screentime is not the same as having a story, and used the example of this season being very much about what's happening with Sam... What he wants is a story that actually goes somewhere and doesn't get dropped or turned into something else.

Jensen wants this, so clearly he can project Dean wanting it as well very successfully.

Personally, I don't remember feeling that Sam was upset that it ended that way -- but again, I ought to re-watch so the whole thing is freshened up in my mind. Perhaps I let Dean's reaction up end reading Sam correctly. And I wanted Dean to have that quest as well, so I was also disappointed.

But I certainly don't agree that being annoyed that Sam took over Dean's quest means that someone believes, as you stated, that Sam can't do anything that looks heroic or non self centered. One does not follow from the other. I was annoyed at Dean, not Sam, for exhorting Sam to stop. I wish he hadn't convinced him. Because Sam did grow in that role -- that's the point of Trials, after all -- and by the end he looked ready to go. In fact, Dean was the one who was selfish then, which I have repeatedly said, for prizing their relationship above closing the gates to hell forever. Dean's behavior felt like a slap in the face at that point. I think he betrayed the hunting creed and their entire life's work. I also think that Carver et al radically regressed Dean for him to behave that way, which is why it feels so disjunctive, narratively speaking. If he could let Sam go in Season 5, he could let him go now.

con't below...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmm, well I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I would agree that maybe i did. I wasn't really sure how to take And here he goes out to be the one to close the gates only to fail and see Sam, without discussing it beforehand, take the role over from him. - but I think you mean that's how Dean sees it? Not your interpretation of that scene. I did read what you said a few times to make sense of it and perhaps it was that i read first things this morning that I wasn't clear on your point. And I have to confess I was very confused.

I have absolutely no issue with Jensen wanting more for Dean. None whatsoever. I want it too actually. I also see Dean/jensen's disappointment come through when Sam gets, yet another, slice of the myth arc or he's relegated to the caretaker role again. Though for me personally it's not a discussion I get into much because I'm more interested in what happens in the show than what happens with the actors (in that, I can't come from any fully informed position to hold an opinion on that). I'm intrigued by interviews and talk about characterisation but what the actors actually desire for themselves is totally up to them. I really don't have any strong feelings on the matter.

Perhaps I let Dean's reaction up end reading Sam correctly.

Hee, and I probably do the same for Sam. And maybe upset isn't the right word - but I wouldn't say he was pleased about it. I'll have to re-watch that scene again too. My feeling would be that (and it's probably not backed up in the scene) Sam wouldn't want to have to put Dean through watching him have to do the trials. I just had trouble accepting that Sam deliberately took the trials off of Dean - orr even that Dean saw it that way. But I will accept that it is an alternative reading of it - and that if Dean did see it that way it would shape his character.

But I certainly don't agree that being annoyed that Sam took over Dean's quest means that someone believes, as you stated, that Sam can't do anything that looks heroic or non self centered. One does not follow from the other.

Yes. I'm sorry about that. I'm usually more measured in my response, I was just so…um..taken aback that the scene could be interpreted that way. I thought you were saying that Sam took the trials off Dean without discussing it first and that really threw me for a loop. Hmmm…so yeah, over-reaction on my part (and probably because I'm very sensitive to the Sam bashing that goes on. I know that's not what you were doing but I am just so sick of hearing about Sam being selfish it kinda felt like the last straw. As in, one action that could be read as actually selfless was being interpreted as selfish. I know Sam does some selfish things, but killing that hell hound wasn't one of them).

If he could let Sam go in Season 5, he could let him go now.

I totally agree. Much the way he regressed Sam at the beginning of S8 to a man who wanted a normal like, he's regressed Dean to not being able to let go of Sam. It's extremely annoying because I think he's taking past canon and re-shaping it. I think Dean is way past not being able to let go of Sam. Just like Sam long ago gave the idea that he could ever have (or want) a normal life. I've said in a few places that Carver has done a dis-service to both these characters since he took hold of them.

I also think that both brothers would have thought through the whole idea of closing the gates of hell anyway. It may mean demons can't get out, but it also means that souls and demons on Earth can't enter. I would have liked that final scene to have been more about them realising that and stopping because of what that would mean rather than them suddenly chaining their minds. I don't believe for a minute that either of them should have thought Sam was going to be getting out alive.

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Part II:

Secondly: I'd hate to think that Dean only stopped the trials in the end because he felt like he should have done them. Is that what others think? I'd say the relationship is even more messed up than I thought if that's the case.

What I said at that point was If it were a completely different show, with a different relationship between the boys, it would be easy to see Dean convincing Sam not to finish the Trials as a malign move on his part.

What I meant there was that it's not a completely different show, it's SPN, so I don't see it that way. That's NOT Dean's relationship to Sam.

I'm not sure why Dean stopped Sam exactly -- I would have preferred him to be all brave and forbearing and tragic and for Sam to have been stopped inevitably - as he had to be if we wanted the show to continue -- by a different source. But it sure looks at this point that the writers are rehearsing "the Dean can't live without Sam narrative," which is not my favorite storyline. Personally, I wish the story were more complicated and nuanced on this point, but it doesn't look that way so far.

As for the third point, I'm talking about psychological nuances and tensions and button pushing in family relationships. Family relationships always have all kinds of strains and underlying subtle tensions, with old issues resurfacing. Especially sibling relationships where everyone "plays their role".

So I'm puzzled that you think Dean wanting his own narrative in his life (even if this is something he keeps to himself and rarely allows out for air) -- and not just being the servitor of his brother -- makes him seem like a petulant child. I think it is the opposite. I know I've recently read tons and tons of animus on your blog directed towards Dean because of his extreme methods in saving Sam. Don't you think he would be less glommed onto needing Sam if he had his own narrative for once -- and not just the role of "save Sam"? I sure do. I think it would have given him his own space and a lot more self worth. It's like a reprise of the issues in the dreamscape of Dream A Little Dream of Me when finally Dean comes face to face with the self he has repressed.

Instead, he is going to get his own narrative this year, but he'll be going dark side, instead of light side. I imagine that will subtract from his self worth going forward, which does not thrill me, as I think that has been dwelt on to death. And seems overwrought at this point.

Anyway, Sam sure wants his space -- that's why he is pushing Dean away, making their relationship professional, not fraternal. He seems to think if Dean learns to treat him as a mere professional than he won't override his boundaries so easily and recklessly. And that he needs actual retraining this way, as in retraining his brain pathways. It's very method. I think Sam is probably right about that. And one can see that it is also hard for Sam, even though at times he just frames everything in the most hurtful way for Dean, as siblings do when they are pushing buttons. And Sam knows how to push Dean's buttons par excellence.

This reframing of the sibling relationship also looks to be a metaphor for what the show is doing, putting the relationship on a new track.

As for my final point, I guess this whole conversation has been filtered through the lens of Sam hate because of what is going on in Tumblir and elsewhere. The thing is, I don't know any Sam haters™ and only know that they exist because I hear about it on this blog and a few others. I've never even been on Tumblir. I'm only telling you my thoughts on the matter and I'm not part of some world wide conspiracy of Sam haters.

I do feel like that assumption is shading the way you read my last post. The "oh the horror" reactions you had, etc.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Personally, I wish the story were more complicated and nuanced on this point, but it doesn't look that way so far.

Totally agree! Nuance isn't something that they do well. And after the very heavy handed episode we had recently I don't think we're going to get those nuances. Sadly.

So I'm puzzled that you think Dean wanting his own narrative in his life (even if this is something he keeps to himself and rarely allows out for air) -- and not just being the servitor of his brother -- makes him seem like a petulant child.

That was more about the way you phrased it rather than me saying I don't want that for Dean. I totally want Dean to have his own narrative (and Sam for that matter). That's why I said it made Dean sound like a petulant child, not that he is one. I don't see Dean has wanting to do things so he's the centre of the universe (which was how I interpreted what you said - sorry).

Don't you think he would be less glommed onto needing Sam if he had his own narrative for once -- and not just the role of "save Sam"?

Oh gosh yes! Believe me, its not just the Dean!gals that want Dean to have is own narrative. By creating Dean as this person who can't live without Sam doesn't do much for Sam either. It's the only hope I have for this storyline actually. That they are taking Dean away from that and both brothers can be somehow freed from this destructive co-dependence. That's not to say I don't want there to be a brotherly bond. I just want a much healthier one - one that's good for both of them.

He seems to think if Dean learns to treat him as a mere professional than he won't override his boundaries so easily and recklessly.

Oh I really love that reading on Sam. That makes great sense and not something I've actually considered. That's great actually - it gives more weight to why Sam said such hurtful things.

I'm only telling you my thoughts on the matter and I'm not part of some world wide conspiracy of Sam haters.

Thank you. The Sam hate takes me by surprise when I come across it - I don't go looking for it. One of the first things I read on LJ after the episode where Sam tells Dean he only saved him for himself was "Sam should eat a bullet". I accidentally wandered into a thread that was so vile toward Sam I just couldn't believe that they could even watch the show. Even on that interview thread it's pretty revolting. So yeah, there's a lot of it and I know I overreact to it. It's hard to take when one's this invested a character (I really do need to figure out how to quit this show ;D). I would react much the same way to Dean hate if I saw it (I don't see much of that I have to say. But maybe it's out there).

Thanks for the chat. Sorry I overacted. That's not my intention in discussions. You have some great insights into Dean and Sam and I always love hearing other fans perspectives.
xx

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

Nuance isn't something that they do well. And after the very heavy handed episode we had recently I don't think we're going to get those nuances.

Hum, maybe I am weird or intellectually challenged but I feel this show and the relationship between the brothers is incredibly nuanced even when it is being heavy handed. There always seem to be these layers to almost every episode. If it wasn't complex and nuanced, I don't see how there would be any discussion,thinky thoughts, or even dissenting viewpoints whatsoever. What would be the point of watching again and again, as I have done? I often end up seeing a completely different perspective each time I re watch an episode.

And, yeah, you could make the argument that fans, in general, have this amazing ability to analyze virtually any story or any character to the nth degree but I am of the opinion that there really does have to be something there to work with in order to do so.

As for the revisit of themes, I am a weirdo here, too, in that, for me, relationship issues, behavior, ingrained responses, feelings of self-worth, and personal growth do not work in a been there, conquered that, moving on now checklist fashion. (I sure wish it did as there's things I've been working to re-wire within myself for years! ;-)

So, I've never been irritated at the revisit of "Dean can't live without Sam narrative" (or any other thematic relationship revisit for that matter) partly because I don't quite see Dean that way but mostly because, for me, these two have lived in each other's back pockets for much of their entire lives. They became their own little island! Their whole road began with loss. I can surmise that fear of violence and loss was a constant in their early years. Subsequently, they have actually lost each other again and again and, I don't know, we don't often have the experience of losing a loved one only to have them returned to us. So, I can only imagine that, once you've felt that loss and grief, you'd do anything to prevent that experience again. (Death PTSD as it were.) They also live in this intense microcosm of violence and danger for which there seems little hope of escape. It is pervasive and it has been life-long. It just seems to me that there would be two fear based responses to this. Cling more fiercely to this life and that person, doing everything you can to prevent or reverse the Worst! possible outcome (Dean, Action/Doer, Active avoidance) or continually try to distance yourself or alter your own responses so that when the Worst! happens (again), and it will happen, you are not positively destroyed by it (Sam, Proactive/Thinker, Passive avoidance). And it is so true to these characters!! I am continually amazed at how this has been explored throughout the series run. Sure, there have been times that the execution has faltered, even from the very beginning, but I can forgive because this show has taken over my brain.

So, maybe I am a little less discerning than most but if that isn't a nuanced exploration of interpersonal character dynamics, I don't know what is. For me, it is one of the most satisfying things about this show.

But, anyway, I am stoked about seeing a Dark Side Dean! mytharc and I'll be eternally Sad if we don't get a Emotional Sam! POV in return because it is needed no matter the Extreme! Fan response. (Is that too many exclamation points or what. I don't know who started this online descriptive tendency but I love them for it.)

I am excited to see it all play out and I have begun considering that it isn't intended to be tied up in a happy Bro bow by the end of this season. (Which will make for a killer hellatus!) I'm also going to avoid the extreme Dean/Sam/Writers wank because it really does color my expectations and interpretations and makes me inordinately negative and frustrated.

(Which basically means I'm gonna be skulking about here and pretty much no where else from now on. LOL!)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Haha! I just saw your edit. "oh the horror"! If you knew me in real life you'd see how much that matches my personality. ;D I can be a bit of a drama queen…(quite literally in fact - I do a lot of acting, so there might have even been a backhand to the brow also…:D)