So ya know...

[ash48]

I'm not going to be writing up a reaction or review of 10.12. In fact, it's unlikely I'll be writing them any more. I feel I only want to complain these days and that's not fair on anyone (though I'm thinking of writing up some general stuff - mostly to help me try and work why I'm feeling just over it all).

I am still curious about what every one thought so I'll still do the polls (if you're all still happy to fill them out *g*).

[Poll #1998102]

Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get it. I think maybe it's just one of the "points" about Sam. He constantly needs saving. It seemed like a great opportunity for Sam to save Dean this time considering his diminished stature (and to show Dean that he is capable of saving him). But they just don't want to go down that route for some reason. I figure it's so Dean can realise that he is capable of being strong and winning the day no matter how small he is - ya know so he is reminded he can fight this. And to show us that Sam needs Dean to be Dean.

(It would have been really interesting if Sam was "forced" to return Dean to normal size (to save him) and then felt bad until Dean said "you did the right thing, I can fight this as I am….). My expectations were just far too high for this one.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Now that would have been an awesome plot twist - I'd have cheered out loud if they'd done that. And it would have been quite simple to do in terms of action - but the ramifications would have given us so much more depth.

Damn.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The ramifications would have been so layered. It would hark back to Dean having to do something that he knew sam didn't want in order to save him. It would be Sam saving Dean and Dean realising that Sam CAN save him and WILL have his back. It might even mean that Dean actually gets strength FROM Sam - knowing that he truly is there for him (and not just because he SAYS he is, but because he'll DO what it takes to save him).

(but that's not what they show wants. They want us to see that Dean can believe himself for himself. I think this is about Dean saving himself - and maybe it will be because Sam believes in him (like we saw in S5). Hard to know, but I'd love to see them mix it up…;)

[fanspired]

At the close of s5 I still thought of the story as an incomplete hero myth, but now I recognize those first 5 seasons as a fully complete anti-hero tragedy in which the brother who always wanted to be free repays all his brother's years of sacrifice with one ultimate act of sacrifice: Sam condemns himself to eternity in a cage to save the world for Dean, so that Dean can finally have his apple pie. He saves Dean not just in the physical sense, but he redeems him, from darkness and 'the life'.

Unfortunately the point that Sam was ultimately 'the savior and redeemer' of Dean 'the sinner' got lost when the show continued beyond Swan Song, but if you think of it as finished at that point then it's complete and perfect and serves its purpose as an utter condemnation of the hero myth - because under that beautiful myth was the reality that, without Sam, Dean just wanted to die, and it was the worst possible outcome for both of them. Dean summed up the final moral of the story succinctly: he did everything a hero was supposed to do, and all it got him was his brother in a hole.

Roll credits.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I loved the layered complexity of what it is to be a hero (or anti-hero) in S1-5. At the time I didn't really appreciate it (I hated that one brother died while one lived), but looking back it worked perfectly.

And even now, there's potential to re-work that (which I thought Carver might be doing). Making Dean bring back Sam for himself (and not for Sam), is a pretty powerful statement. Instead of that being played out it's now just Dean paying for his sins while the very person his sins effected stands by and supports him though it. It's very noble of Sam and maybe that's the point. But until Dean is seen to actually understand his "sins" there's never going to be any moving forward. Which, might be the plan as it seems the show will continue for another, at least, 2 years. I'm just not going to have the strength to participate in that.

[fanspired]

There were an extraordinary number of layers in the original show. It just isn't possible to do justice to all of them.

Alas, I don't think we're ever going to revisit an examination of what Dean did wrong in s9 becuase I don't think it was just fans that didn't like that storyline. I get the feeling Jensen didn't either, but that's mostly speculation on my part.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that both Jensen and Dean have mentioned "tricking Sam". It's still in play for Dean I think. He genuinely feels bad about doing that - and plays into his guilt and self loathing (making it a plot devise for Dean's arc rather than a story arc for Sam).

And I get it that fans didn't like it (like they didn't like the Sam/amelia storyline) but instead of recognising it happened (and is canon) they "ignore" it thinking we'll just forget it (and maybe casual viewers do…). Sam's angel possession is one of the biggest things to have happened to Sam since S5 and it's been totally ignored (aside from Dean feeling bad about it). They've also dropped interesting Dean arcs (purgatory being a major one) so I don't think it's just a Sam thing. It's just more obvious (hee, to me…*g*).

[fanspired]

Yes it's very frustrating that every time there's a loud outcry about a storyline they deal with it not be resolving the issue but by sweeping it under the carpet and, as you say, hoping everyone will forget about it. It does seem that most people do. Personally, I didn't think the real Dean would ever have agreed to Sam being possessed (hell, he was prepared to let Sam die in the panic room so long as he died human) but I've long since stopped expecting the characters (and especially Dean) to behave in character, so I was just disappointed they abandoned an arc that had the potential to examine some very important issues.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Making Dean bring back Sam for himself (and not for Sam), is a pretty powerful statement

That's something Sam said, and later on, he admitted that he didn't really mean some of the things that he said... he was just trying to hurt Dean. Dean brought back Sam for both of them. Him and Sam, fighting the good fight together.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I figure it's so Dean can realise that he is capable of being strong and winning the day no matter how small he is - ya know so he is reminded he can fight this.

Dean didn't save the day at the end until he became big again. And about Sam needing saving... the witch recited a spell, and that's how Sam was thrown against a wall. Dean was beaten by Hansel, but he wasn't hit with magical mojo like Sam was.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah but dean had to sacrifice a life without the mark in order to save Sam. It was very noble of course (and we knew that he'd be big again at some point) - everything Dean does is noble (if only "he" can see that…etc. etc.). I know how Sam was knocked out I just don't now why he continues to be knocked out at those crucial moments. (I mean, I do I'm just tired of seeing it over and over again).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Yeah but dean had to sacrifice a life without the mark in order to save Sam.

I don't see anything wrong with him doing that. And he was also saving himself, and Tina.

I know how Sam was knocked out I just don't now why he continues to be knocked out at those crucial moments (I mean, I do I'm just tired of seeing it over and over again).

Sam was the one knocked out in this ep, because Dean needed to see that he could kill the MOTW, and not hulk out. Also, Sam is the one who pulled out his knife.... if he hadn't done that, Dean never would've had the chance to grab the hex bag.

I know what your saying... Sam does get knocked out a lot. But, he does save the day sometimes. In Fan Fiction, Calliope knocked him around, but he's the one who killed her, while Dean wasn't able to kill the Scarecrow. And sometimes, both boys are knocked out, and the guest star kills the MOTW.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know he saves the day. And tbh it's not any one thing about that episode that bothered me. They worked together and that was nice. Dean has to prove he can control the hulking out. I mean, I get it. I do. It's just not working for me at the moment - for whatever reason. I can't pinpoint it. It could just be I'm bored with it all. Angst ridden, soul searching Dean has never been my favourite Dean flavour so it might be that. It could also be that after 10 years on this roller coaster I'm beginning to feel the effects and just want to get off for a while.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Do you think it's because of your feelings about Dean from last season?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I'm not sure. Last season really did kill it for me. They are not addressing anything that happened (other than Dean feeling bad about it) so yeah, it's incredibly unsatisfying and has left a bad taste in my mouth. Until any of that is resolved I can't move on. And as it doesn't look like it will be I either have to move on and try and ignore it (like they are doing) or pull away. I thought I could do the former but the more I watch and the more Sam is sidelined the worse it gets. Giving Dean such a in-depth weighty story and Sam getting nothing is adding salt to the wound. Not that I begrudge Dean getting a meaty story line at all - it's just been at the sake of Sam, which upsets me rather a lot (it would seem). At this point there's no pulling back I fear. I think Sam is being lead to making some sort of "bad" decision to save Dean (so they can both have made this soul destroying decisions and be even) and I'm just not up for it. As you know, I desperately wanted "No Dean, I wouldn't" to really mean something. Instead it's been made a mockery of (because of fan pandering - Dean was hurt and Sam was hated so they had to go back and "fix" it) so yeah. It just sucks for me. Sadly.

Fans who have already left saw this coming and I've been stubbornly ignoring it. That episode just seemed to clarify what they've been saying all along (namely that there is no plan - just do whatever, throw in a "BM" scene and move on).

(and I'm sorry. That's all very personal. I am thrilled for those who can watch and love it still. Better still for those who are have recently hated Sam but are now liking him again (added bitterness for me, but probably good for Jared and the show *g*).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Until any of that is resolved I can't move on.

This is a quote from Jared...

"I feel like Sam finally knows and has accepted a lot of the things he's fought for years and years, i.e. his destiny, that Sam and Dean have both done things that maybe weren't completely forthright like when Sam was on demon blood or when Dean let Sam get possessed by an angel. I think Sam has made his peace with it and he realizes all those choices were all made with good intentions. So now we have Sam who just loves his brother and wants his brother to get well and be better. That's how this season will be different."

So, Sam has let go, and moved on from that. It would be nice if that was shown on the show, but I accept it from what Jared has said. I think that when Dean died, and then went missing, it put things in perspective for Sam.

because of fan pandering - Dean was hurt and Sam was hated so they had to go back and "fix" it)

I've never heard that before... I thought that's what was planned all along. And it sounds like you're saying in general that the show has no plan?

I have complaints about the show, but it's never changed how I feel about Sam and Dean, and I try to focus on the things about the show that I do like.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's wonderful that Jared has made peace with it so he's got a great perspective on Sam. And it's true. If we didn't know better nothing that happened last season, or the season before, matters now. It's what we are seeing on the screen. A Sam who has accepted everything and moved on. It's the way it's been written and I think it's crucial that Jared makes that peace otherwise the character would be very different. I know I should move on to, but my anger over never seeing that on screen is just so weighty. There are times I let it past and then other times when it boils to the surface again.

It's my personal feeling that there isn't an overall plan. Nothing that's been said. The fact that nothing that's happened in the past 2 season (to Sam) is relevant now makes me feel that he only experienced all that for plot reasons. Which I totally accept - they need a story. But to spend just 1 episode exploring ANY of that surely shouldn't be too much to ask.

I also accept it's where I'M coming from. Not the majority of fandom. Fans are really happen with S10 - which is fantastic! I'm just in a place that I can no longer get excited about it (like I used to) because it's just not working for me. I'll still watch and be involved in fandom (because I can't seem to quit, even though I'd like to ;D).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I wish there was something I could say that could make you feel better, hon.

The fact that nothing that's happened in the past 2 season (to Sam) is relevant now makes me feel that he only experienced all that for plot reasons.

Sam has changed from his experiences over the past few seasons. He's the opposite of season 8 Sam, who didn't look for Dean. And I can see through his actions at the end of season 9 and the beginning of season 10, that he'd do anything to bring his brother back. Just like Dean would do anything to bring Sam back at the beginning of season 9. Sam is no longer behaving like he wished he had died. He's totally focused on being there for his brother, which is the opposite of the "we're not brothers anymore" of season 9.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. I just have to get over it. Nothing will change it as the past is the past.

And what I meant by that statement is that the Show doesn't address anything that has happened to Sam. Sam not looking for Dean wasn't really grounded in any good reason (I reconciled it with him totally believing that Dean had died and he thought there really wasn't anything he could do). But we've had to come up with that pretty much - the show just said he "imploded". So yeah. It was just really there. Never any genuine exploration for his strange response (and hitting a dog and falling is love just didn't work for me as a reason…)

And I can see through his actions at the end of season 9 and the beginning of season 10, that he'd do anything to bring his brother back.

Which is the Sam we should have had at the beginning of S8. It makes my blood boil that Carver first created a Sam who wouldn't look for Dean and his "journey" then became one who now cares. Argh. He NEVER stopped caring or loving his brother. Even after all that deceit last season he still showed his deep care and love for his brother.

Sam is no longer behaving like he wished he had died.

well, I suppose. Though I never really felt like Sam wanted to die. Just that he had made peace with it.

He's totally focused on being there for his brother, which is the opposite of the "we're not brothers anymore" of season 9.

Oh man, the single most thing that makes me hate what they've done. It drives me to distraction that his words of anger actually meant people thought Sam really didn't care about his brother. But that's not the fans fault - that is all in the writing and the dreadful handling of the aftermath of Sam's possession.

Dammit. Sorry. You know how passionate I am about what's happened over the last 2 season.

I think for me the best thing is to pretend it didn't happen. The show does, so I think if I can clear my head and just look at it for what they are doing now. Sam is acting like he did in season three - doing what ever he can to save Dean.

I also find solace in the couple of bits of POV we did have - Sam during the trials mostly. :) Oh, and his lovely hair in S8…:))

Thanks. Sorry to counter that with such negativity - but it's precisely those things that make me despair. If it was all about Sam growing strong because he's (finally) got full body autonomy and feels he can make a difference then I think it would be at least something. Which might be what they are doing - just not telling us that's what they are doing. ;)

[casey28.livejournal.com]

What's happened in the past two years is relevant to Sam now, because he's changed from "that' Sam to the one he is now. Even though we don't like what they did to him in early season 8, and they didn't handle his storyline well in season 9, the changes have still taken place.

And what I meant by that statement is that the Show doesn't address anything that has happened to Sam.

And that's a different issue than whether what he did in the past is relevant now. I do agree that there's a lot that wasn't addressed, especially in early season 8. And the little bit of explanation that we did get, didn't make sense.

Which is the Sam we should have had at the beginning of S8.

Yes!

It makes my blood boil that Carver first created a Sam who wouldn't look for Dean and his "journey" then became one who now cares.

Yeah, it's painful that Sam was so out of character, and his growth has been to become what he already really was, before season 8. What helps me is that I'm so damn grateful that he's the "real" Sammy again. And I cling to that with everything I've got.

It drives me to distraction that his words of anger actually meant people thought Sam really didn't care about his brother.

He did care about Dean, and we can see that through his actions. But his words still hurt his brother, and sometimes he'd remind him that it was just business between them.

Though I never really felt like Sam wanted to die. Just that he had made peace with it.

He said "I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died "

I also find solace in the couple of bits of POV we did have - Sam during the trials mostly. :) Oh, and his lovely hair in S8…:))

Yes, we did get some good character stuff/pov from Sam during the trials. And it's the best Sam hair ever. :)))

The show does, so I think if I can clear my head and just look at it for what they are doing now. Sam is acting like he did in season three - doing what ever he can to save Dean.

That's a really good idea. It helps to focus on the good Sam stuff in season 10. It reminds me of how he was in season 3, too.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I missed your post first time around...so busy this week...but man, this would've been an awesome twist!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

How awesome would it have been to actually have involved Sam in Dean being turned back?! (I though it was going to happen actually - Sam was the one who was insisting Hansel tell him how to turn Dean back after all…)