SPN questions that have been bugging me...

[ash48]

and so I wondered if my knowledgeable flist could shed any light...


1. Was the demon in Croatoan (Duane Tanner) Meg? I admit to never thinking it was but I've come to realise that others think it is....?

2. When Ruby told Sam "You didn't need the feather to fly, you had it in you the whole time Dumbo", she's referring to Sam not needing the blood to be able to exorcise Demons yeah? So if that's the case why does Sam run out of "juice" when exorcising Demons? As in he wasn't able to exorcise Ruby after getting rid on Lilith. Is it because he is mentally exhausted? Spent his mental energies? Did he only think he needed blood in order to use his special skills. If so, does than mean he could actually exorcise demons now (and in S5) and doesn't because it would betray Dean's trust and just be too "darkside"? I'm thinking yes. But would he be able to without the connection to blood.... Hmmmm...

and finally (and this is because I am getting all wooby because I am in the middle of making a Sam vid and it's breaking me heart just a little...).

Why is Dean so hard on Sam with the choices he made after his death? I suppose that's rhetorical, because I know Dean has issues he's dealing with as well (and Sam choosing Ruby over himself cut to the core), but Dean copped out after Sam's death. He didn't want to live with the pain of grief. He couldn't live without Sam, so he bought him back.

Yet Sam had to suffer the terrible grief of losing Dean. He didn't have an out like Dean did. Now, sure Sam made some bad choices, but holy crap. I think Dean making a deal with a demon was a pretty bad choice as well. So yeah, cut your little bro some slack Dean. He was hurting mighty bad and the choices at the time helped him survive. Don't forget, you chose not to live with those feelings.....

(And that last one isn't really a question, just a rant. I know the way each of them have handled each others death is the whole point (well mostly) of S3 to S5. And I love it really! Just thinky thoughts...)

Comments

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'd never thought of the Croatoan demon actually being Meg - don't know why really as now it sounds just perfect, but at the time I just thought he was another of YED progeny. Cool though and I think I'll adopt this one, especially as Meg has been turning up again.

The demon blood thing, oh, isn't it a mess? But then so many other things about Sam's motivations and when exactly he took to drinking the blood are missing in canon. When I was vidding Fallen I went through all this, without any final results but the conclusions I came to were hopefully in the vid. My thoughts are - no, Sam doesn't actually need the blood to use his powers, but I do think that the blood was addictive, I think it gave him a high he wasn't aware of and I think Ruby used it to tie him to her and keep him off balance and feeling physically weak without it.

Again I don't have proof of anything but I think there was a turning point at Head of a Pin, I know many think Sam was always drinking from Ruby, but I tend to think he was using his powers limited with his own doubts about himself turning evil keeping him from the true potential of his powers. For me, he only started drinking from Ruby then, thinking that would boost his powers as she had been tempting him with for the one intent - save Dean from Alastair. He didn't need it, his anger with the angels would have been enough, but he believed then that he needed Ruby's blood to give him that extra power. Right there I think for me Sam decided that anything he could do to save Dean would be worth the price, still hoping that if he turned evil Dean would be alive to put him down. Sam's lived with the horrible guilt of not being able to save Dean, a promise he made and couldn't keep and to me right there he gave up on himself and went with Ruby and the plan to kill Lilith at all costs, I really think he thought it would work and he could do it and it would save the world from the apocalypse.

Sadly it wasn't to be as all sides conspired against the Winchester brothers for their own gain - but let's be fair to Sam here, his plan was the only plan on the table. Castiel was under the influence of Zachariah and they had no plans that didn't include keeping Sam on track to kill Lillith.

I understand how upset and betrayed Dean was, but I also understand the grief and undeniable pain Sam was in from watching Dean being pulled apart by the hounds and by his own memories once he got back. That guilt, knowing his life was that price? I think that fuelled Sam to do what he did and damn the consequences.

What the hell has happened to his powers now? Shit if I know, but a lot of stuff hasn't made much sense this year, how did Bobby get possessed? WFT was that about them getting zapped on board a plane? How did anyone explain that and why was it necessary for anything? Why did they think the colt could kill an angel? I'm baffled...as you can tell. :))

[stormcloude]

I think there was a turning point at Head of a Pin

For me they were too familiar with the "ritual" of him drinking her blood for it to be new at that point. I think the turning point was in Criss Angel when she came and tempted him, then he willingly went with her in the end. That's when I think he started embracing his powers and drinking her blood for good.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, yes, I do see your point there, but for me the Criss Angel episode was where Sam decided to make a plan with Ruby and take action without Dean, but to me he was still determined at that point to do things his way, I think he knew about taking the blood and I think she'd offered her arm and enticed him to partake to strengthen his powers quickly before, but he hadn't.

In Head of the Pin, it was the danger Dean was in that caused him to throw caution to the wind - say "this is it, I don't care if it turns me evil" it was an all or nothing suicide bid to get Dean back and this is where his powers went into overload and he burnt Alastair to a crisp, surprising even Castiel. He thought the huge power boost was just from the blood when actually it was his anger and hatred that did it.

Heck, I'm probably miles off, but that's just the way it seems to fit best for me. Kripke is bound to blow it all out of the water soon anyway! *G*

[stormcloude]

I can see your viewpoint too. Kripke really botched things leaving so much of Sam's story in the shadows in season 4. I doubt we'll ever know how it really was supposed to be interpreted.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Yep, I totally agree with this, he's really left so much of Sam's motivational story that far in the dark it's lost all sympathy for many fans and that's a damned shame.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

don't know why really as now it sounds just perfect, but at the time I just thought he was another of YED progeny

Yeah. I've been having this conversation with tahirire and she said that the Duane demon was Meg. And, like you I just thought he was another of YED progeny. I makes sense that it could have been Meg, though I think I agree with what most peeps have said here - I think they would have made it clearer if it had been Meg. Being one of the major OC's.

The demon blood thing, oh, isn't it a mess?

Oh yay. I'm not the only one who thinks so! (and I'm definitely getting that vibe from some of the responses here that lots of other peeps think so too).

Sam doesn't actually need the blood to use his powers, but I do think that the blood was addictive

Yes. I think I've come to that understanding too. Sam doesn't need the blood - and as dinalori pointed out the other PKs didn't need "enhancement" to use their powers so there's some good evidence to back that up. But it makes sense that the blood is addictive (well, to Sam anyway). Sam likes the high and strength it gives him and there must be something in it to keep him coming back for more.... it certainly screwed him up when he was coming off it.

but I think there was a turning point at Head of a Pin,

I have to say I've never contemplated when he started drinking it. It only came to light at the end of S4, so I suppose I figured it was some time toward the end. Though there's an episode where Ruby comes to Sam and says something like "I know you don't like it, but you need it" - something like that, and at the time I think we are meant to think that she's talking about using his powers, but I think she's referring to drinking her blood. This suggests that he has had it before. (Actually I'm going to have to check up on this, because I have no idea which ep that's from, but I think this might help pin point when he might have started drinking it.....) Hee! Watch this space.... I'm curious about this now. But I have to dash in a minute so I can't check it now...)

but I also understand the grief and undeniable pain Sam was in from watching Dean being pulled apart by the hounds and by his own memories once he got back.

I'm so glad you said this because it's one of my main focuses on the Sam vid I'm making - watching his brother die like that (and his guilt for letting it happen) being the main catalyst for basically all his choices in S4.

Hee! And questions at the end.... oh yes! There's certainly A LOT of unanswered questions! ggrrrrr.


I'll be back.......

[ash48.livejournal.com]

All right.... I'm back! (this won't make sense if you haven't read my other comment....)

So. In Chris Angel, Sam says "It's not the Psychic thing I've got a problem with" and Ruby says "I know you don't like it" and then later she says. "just admit to yourself that you like it"...

I reckon she's referring to the blood drinking here. Sam's tried it, liked and and knows it makes him more powerful. He just doesn't like the idea of it.

And then later in Head of a Pin, he realises he needs it to get rid of Alistair. Of course we get no indication if he's used it between CA and HoP, but I'd say he started using it sometime before Chris Angel ... maybe even as early as It's the Great Pumpkin (the last time he full on exorcised a demon).

Hmm... not sure of course. But you've got me thinking about it now!! :D

:D

[dinalori.livejournal.com]

There was something that was itching at the back of my mind all day and I just remembered what it was.

I just rechecked my S4 DVD and in Heaven and Hell Ruby chastises Sam about his abilities "getting flabby" and that he knows what he needs to do to "tone up" but Sam insists he's not going to do that anymore. So he'd obviously used demon blood before then, possibly even before Dean came back. It was in 4.4 "Metamorphosis" that he decided to give up using his powers, so I'm guessing he'd been on demon blood before that point, quit, then in CA decided he'd do what was necessary to "cut the head off the snake." In Pin he said it had been weeks since he last had it, and CA was three weeks before then so that might have been the last time....

0_0 ...Ok, I've clearly been thinking about this way too much. ;D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ahh. Yes. Good pick up.

You know there are few references to the "something else" that Sam was doing. Even when he says he's giving up using his powers in Metamorphosis he says something like giving it "all" up. I reckon he could be referring to the blood taking here as well.

I think it probably started quite early on.. maybe even when Dean was away.(?) It's just not something he was ever comfortable about. And I can imagine he really did want to give it all up when Dean returned. But it ended up being harder than he thought it would be... especially as the demons got harder and harder to pull. And when Dean was in danger, there was no question (I think) about doing what had to be done....

0_0 ...Ok, I've clearly been thinking about this way too much. ;D

Hee! I don't think you're the only one hun! There's lots off peeps doing some pretty interesting thinking.... :)

I'll be keen to hear what el1ie thinks...

xx

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I'm going back and forth on all these posts and trying to make some kind of sense of it all, seeing all the evidence put forward it's clear that Sam and Ruby were doing some sort of blood thingy, before Head of a Pin.

Maybe, and I'm only throwing this out there, maybe she first gave it him as some sort of "cure"? Remember how much pain he was in, the nose bleeds and headaches? What if she first gave him the blood from a flask, would it have less of an effect on him? I do remember - Metamorphosis was it (?) - she asks about the headaches, so maybe it started like that. Then he was struggling to only release a portion of his powers, which I still believe he did - he tells Dean he knows what he's doing and he can control it, Jake seemed to talk about flipping a switch and he had far more powers than Sam seems to have at this point - so I'm guessing he was also trying NOT to turn them all on? Maybe the Demon blood wasn't the power boost early in his training partly because he isn't taking the blood right then direct from her vein? He thinks that practice is the of using his powers within limits, the blood helps him recover. She says if he feeds directly from her, he wouldn't need to practice, the power would be his but that limitless power isn't want he wants, he just wants to kill demons without killing the host.

Does that make any sense?

We know he did away with a great demon Samhein quite early on, 4x07, but he suffered for it, the pain and the bleeding were very much in evidence. Chriss Angel was 4x12, where he decides to make plans with Ruby - he'd been trying to do things Dean's way, but wasn't getting anywhere, so was going back to Ruby to start training again and hunt down Lillith. 4x15 Death takes a Holiday and he's much stronger, feels able to take on Alastair, but still not strong enough to stop Alastair from escaping, he is more confident though. 4x16 Head of a Pin and he walks in to that warehouse and just blasts Alastiar out of existence - I think through his own anger - but I'm thinking now he could have believed the extra boost came from feeding off Ruby directly.

Buggered if I know really, a possible explanation.

I'm so glad you said this because it's one of my main focuses on the Sam vid I'm making - watching his brother die like that (and his guilt for letting it happen) being the main catalyst for basically all his choices in S4.

I think the images in my mind of what happened after Dean died from being ripped to shreds by the hounds haunt my visions of Sam and will always, he must have taken him from the house, all that blood and torn flesh and driven him to that field, made a crude wooden box, dug a pit and placed his brother, his only family in there and then taken the shovel and filled in the dirt. It's horrifying to think of it. I've never checked to see if Dean arose in the same clothes and Castiel mended them, but there's also a big part of my vision that's filled with Sam cleaning his brother and dressing him for his grave. Quite honestly - which ever version happened Sam buried Dean and placed a cross at his head and all that with the memory of making a promise that Dean wasn't going to go to hell. Sam could never, ever forget that and those memories are still there.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Heya! Hee! Yep - lots of ideas being chucked around here and I love it. :)

Does that make any sense?

Absolutely and I really love the idea that it could have been, initially, a way to help Sam through the pain of exorcising. I just can't imagine in my mind the first time Sam would have said yes to Ruby - he must have been extremely down and quite possibly in a lot of pain. Yeah - that's working for me for sure.

I like your thinking on the progression as well. Makes sense and considering we really have nothing to go on the best we can do is speculate.

And oh my. You're breaking my heart here with the details of Sam having to bury Dean. I actually wanted to show that in my vid. I wanted to use a clip of Sam digging a grave, but I couldn't find a suitable one. I've settle for a shot of the cross in the hope that all of that can be imagined....*sniff* Oh Sammy!

Thanks Ellie. I've enjoyed exploring the issue of when Sam started drinking blood. As I said earlier it's not something I'd give much thought to. *g* I have now!

xx

[dinalori.livejournal.com]

I wanted to use a clip of Sam digging a grave, but I couldn't find a suitable one. o_0 Really?? With all the grave digging they do in the show you couldn't find a shot that would work? Huh. *eyes stack of DVDs and VHS tapes* Uh.. you done making that vid? Cause I could always.... ya know.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

No, I'm only half way through making the vid.

And I admit I didn't think too hard about it. I tried to use the one from Roadkill. His expression doesn't work so well - the shovel was ok though.

But yeah - if you can think of any I still may be able to incorporate it. It needs to be just Sam, with a shovel. I also thought about Manipping him in looking at the cross, but I'd need to find a suitable shot of Sam to do that.... and my brain just started hurting... :)

But if you come across any I can see what I can do with it. But don't go to too much trouble hun.
:)

[dinalori.livejournal.com]

Wow. I'm surprised that out of more than 90 episodes there's only been the one scene of Sam doing a salt & burn alone. Even the ones where Sam was doing the digging you can always see Dean just off to the side.

*shrug* Well, I tried.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey there. Thanks so much for looking. And I know. You'd think there would be more...

Each time I'm looking for a particular scene for a vid I go through each episode mentally and basically try to remember what's in it. Of course the more episodes there are the harder that's getting. I confess to not really thinking too hard on that one, so thanks for checking for me!

*hugs*

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I've had a great time too sorting stuff out in a very friendly atmosphere - I tend to steer away from conversations like this as I'm terrible at remembering dialogue! Spend too much time scrolling for visuals I think, this has really helped me think too, so thanks very much for that.

And yes, for the record I think they dropped the ball for never allowing the audience to openly grieve WITH Sam - Mystery Spot included, flashback was too late and too little, too focused on finding Ruby a clean body and not on what Sam was going through. But they constantly do this and I don't know why - why DID Sam take that first drink of demon blood - it's a huge step and why or why did he say yes to Lucifer? Just being absent from Dean doesn't cut it for me. I want to know, but I don't think I ever will and after a while it really gets me mad.

I would kill for some of those scenes to vid with...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I tend to steer away from conversations like this

And I usually do to! But everyone has been lovely and I've had a ball listening to everyone's ideas and thoughts on stuff.

I would kill for some of those scenes to vid with...

I know exactly what you mean. The vid I'm working on is pretty long and I would am desperate for more "Sam after Dean's dead" footage. I think I've squeezed every possible shot out of "I know what you did last summer"!!

I always wonder that if we didn't have the writers strike last year, whether we would have had an episode to explore Sam's post trauma from Mystery Spot. I would like to think so... But knowing them probably not.