SPN questions that have been bugging me...

[ash48]

and so I wondered if my knowledgeable flist could shed any light...


1. Was the demon in Croatoan (Duane Tanner) Meg? I admit to never thinking it was but I've come to realise that others think it is....?

2. When Ruby told Sam "You didn't need the feather to fly, you had it in you the whole time Dumbo", she's referring to Sam not needing the blood to be able to exorcise Demons yeah? So if that's the case why does Sam run out of "juice" when exorcising Demons? As in he wasn't able to exorcise Ruby after getting rid on Lilith. Is it because he is mentally exhausted? Spent his mental energies? Did he only think he needed blood in order to use his special skills. If so, does than mean he could actually exorcise demons now (and in S5) and doesn't because it would betray Dean's trust and just be too "darkside"? I'm thinking yes. But would he be able to without the connection to blood.... Hmmmm...

and finally (and this is because I am getting all wooby because I am in the middle of making a Sam vid and it's breaking me heart just a little...).

Why is Dean so hard on Sam with the choices he made after his death? I suppose that's rhetorical, because I know Dean has issues he's dealing with as well (and Sam choosing Ruby over himself cut to the core), but Dean copped out after Sam's death. He didn't want to live with the pain of grief. He couldn't live without Sam, so he bought him back.

Yet Sam had to suffer the terrible grief of losing Dean. He didn't have an out like Dean did. Now, sure Sam made some bad choices, but holy crap. I think Dean making a deal with a demon was a pretty bad choice as well. So yeah, cut your little bro some slack Dean. He was hurting mighty bad and the choices at the time helped him survive. Don't forget, you chose not to live with those feelings.....

(And that last one isn't really a question, just a rant. I know the way each of them have handled each others death is the whole point (well mostly) of S3 to S5. And I love it really! Just thinky thoughts...)

Comments

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

1. No confirmation of who that demon was, although i think if it was meant to be Meg the writers wouldve made it clear.

2. Yes. Which is also why when the hunter pours demon blood into Sam's mouth in 5.03 he doesn't "hulk out".

3. Dean is projecting his own anger onto Sam. Anger that he failed, and left Sam, Anger at himself that he caused Sam all that pain. And something else about being faced with how important he is to Sam. How much easier for Dean if he came back and Sam was leading a happy life. See, Dean could think - I am worthless and even Sam doesn't need me.

oooh new vid!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

i think if it was meant to be Meg the writers wouldve made it clear. Yes. That was exactly the point I had made in this discussion. Meg is too big a character to not make a point out of it being her.

Which is also why when the hunter pours demon blood into Sam's mouth in 5.03 he doesn't "hulk out".

Ah. I thought that was because he didn't swallow any. Though I also think he might have made a deliberate choice not to "hulk out" to prove to the other hunters and to himself that he could control it. Maybe. Though he may have ended up swallowing some and spitting out what he could was an act of defiance.... Hmmm. Curious.

Dean is projecting his own anger onto Sam.
Yes. I can believe that. Dean failed Sam in so many ways and his self worth issues effect his emotions Though it's interesting to ponder that if Dean did come back to a happy, contented Sam how he may see that as Sam not needing him at all. The fact that he is a mess should make Dean see that Sam truly needs him - and in fact S4 played that out I think.

And yes... new vid... if I can just reconcile the images and the lyrics....
:)

[tenaciousmetoo.livejournal.com]

1) Huh, I'd forgotten their hint there that she's still around (though, in hindsight, I remember talking about it at the time).

2) I've been arguing about this with a friend since it aired. She thinks Sam *still* doesn't realize he doesn't need the demon blood for his powers. I think he had to have heard and understood what she was saying and would realize it was all placebo effect.

It seems a bit out of character to me that Sam wouldn't have/hasn't experimented since that revelation, particularly since he had powers even in S1, and was also told at the Special Kids' ranch in 2x21 AHBL that, with practice, it was amazing what you can do. I've been waiting for him to test what's possible for a long time, particularly once he realized the blood wasn't necessary, if only to see if he really can use the powers for the greater good (despite it going bad this last time). That's always been his modus, and this is the first time he's not following it. IMHO, his desire for Dean's trust never really had enough pull to override his youngest-child-I-can-do-it-myself tendencies.

3) I'm having trouble putting this into words the properly convey what I want...I keep re-reading what I'm typing, and it's "no, that's not quite what I mean," so I'm sorry for that.

I think Dean's hard on Sam about his choices because Sam's recent choices show his willingness to cross certain ethical lines, which is what Dean questions the most about himself. Sam was always Dean's morality check, and if he changes and becomes more callous (like early seasons Dean), then has Dean failed as the older brother by allowing it?

Dean is willing to do anything to protect his brother; that's his role, and he's accepted the sacrifice. I'm not sure he's ready to acknowledge or accept his brother's reciprocation, because it means Sam has to live a life with burdens that Dean still doesn't want him to have. I think Dean has always been willing to step over that line to save Sam, but he's not so happy seeing it reflected back. That's why the "we're together because we keep each other human" speech resonates.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Huh, I'd forgotten their hint there that she's still around

Oh yeah, she's still around all right. It's just that it was suggested to me that the demon possessing Duane way back in Season 2 was actually the Meg demon, which I had never considered. I always thought it was just any old demon trying to get the intel on Sam.

She thinks Sam *still* doesn't realize he doesn't need the demon blood for his powers.

Aaaahhh. That's interesting. And in fact there's nothing so far to suggest that Sam doesn't know that. He may in fact still think it helped him with his powers....Hm.... I suppose time will tell. If they ever revisit Sam and his powers (which I hope they do!), it will be interesting to see what happens. Personally I think he's made the connection, but I like the idea that he may not have done.


And yes.... Dean's reactions to Sam are certainly very deep and I think you've touched on some strong points here... In many ways I suppose Dean is hypocritical about what he wants from Sam. Don't cross that morality line, even though I did. Though I think the dangers are far greater when Sam crosses over because of his so called destiny, and Dean is probably aware of that also.

That's why the "we're together because we keep each other human" speech resonates.

And probably one of the driving forces behind the whole show... how each of them keeps the other from going too far. More important now, knowing what the end game is.

Curious and curiouser.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts hun! :D

[ciaimpala.livejournal.com]

1. I actually had never thought about it being Meg...I agree with missyjack that most likely if it was meant to be Meg, it would have been made more clear.

2. That line of Ruby's actually really confused me...it does seem though from later events that he doesn't need the blood. I have wondered because we don't hear about his psychic powers anymore, and now his exorcism powers aren't mentioned either. I'm hoping as we hear more about the "bigger plan", we'll learn more about this.

3. I feel the same way as you. I love both the brothers, but if forced to choose, I am a Sam girl, and it does seem like he gets bashed a lot for the choices he made. Yes, the Ruby choice was not the best, but as you said, Sam had to not only watch Dean die, but live with him being dead. Dean only had to live with Sam being dead for a little while-a horrible horrible while, but still just a little while. And I think Dean does realize that, when he thanks Ruby-I think he realizes Sam might have ended up dead out of grief if Ruby hadn't given him an outlet and a purpose(an unethical, insane outlet and purpose, but an outlet and purpose nonetheless).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I actually had never thought about it being Meg

No. Me neither. I found it fascinating that the person I was chatting to did - I actually really like the idea, but I don't think there's enough evidence to support it.

That line of Ruby's actually really confused me
I've pondered that line quite a bit myself. After going over it a few times, my feeling is that he never needed the blood to use his powers. It was just a great way for Ruby to make him dependant on her. Very sad really. Breaks my heart when I think about it. And I am really hoping we get more about all that on the show...

And I think Dean does realize that, when he thanks Ruby-
Yes, this was a very telling moment. It took a lot for Dean to say thanks, but this does provide us with hint that Dean does understand the pain that Sam suffered. Dean just doesn't seem to remember that sometimes.

I confess I too get about annoyed that we see and can sympathise with Dean's problems and choices, but really we don't get much of a chance to do that for Sam. Sam seems to have to be eternally grateful for everything Dean has done for him, when sometimes Dean's choices haven't made it easy for Sam.

Aww. *hugs* them both. I think I'm starting to miss them now. At least it's January... :)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :D

[stormcloude]

1) I always assumed that the guy was the "son" of the YED because of the similar way he phoned home. :D

2) I think Kripke just made it up on the fly and thought that line sounded good, without thinking it through more thoroughly. (But I have to admit that I haven't rewatched any of S4.)

3) I think a little of it is that if Sam has gone darkside and is so lost, then Dean's time in hell was worth nothing. Dean's sacrifice was worth nothing and Dean broke the first seal for nothing. There was a pretty strong thread running through the season that maybe Dean regretted the deal he made that sent him to hell. Fandom kinda saw it as Dean not caring for Sam, but I think we were supposed to see it as Dean growing and realizing he made a mistake. They (writers, Kripke) just never really followed through on it at all and you kind of have to infer it and imagine it. (Again, I haven't rewatched any of S4, so I may be rememberin wrong.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I always assumed that the guy was the "son" of the YED because of the similar way he phoned home

Yes. I kind of imagined him as part of Azazel's family. I know Demons seem to be able to mix it up gender wise, but I saw him as a "son" as well.

I think Kripke just made it up on the fly and thought that line sounded good

Oh noes! Really? That would be truly disappointing if that was the case. It was such a poignant moment - showing Sam how well he was "played" by Ruby the whole time. It hasn't been mentioned again in S4, as far as I know, and I will be disappointed if some reference isn't made to it at some stage.

I think a little of it is that if Sam has gone darkside and is so lost, then Dean's time in hell was worth nothing.

Ah yes. I can see that. And Sam did say he wasn't going to go down that route... I never got the feeling that Dean didn't care for Sam though. Angry, disappointed, scared... but always caring. To me though, he just has a funny way of showing it. But I think that's part of Dean's character. Lack of communication between them seems to have created many of the problems they face now...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts hun! :D

[ancastar.livejournal.com]

Since you've already had your questions answered, I'll just add my two cents on your mini-rant. :-)

And please know--I do understand some of the whys and wherefores of Dean's reaction to learning what Sam did in his absence. I'm not blaming him. The guy just came back from hell. I'm thinking he deserves a little slack.

However, I also think Sam does too. I've mentioned this in my own LJ, so you may have seen it already. But here it goes again--not only does Sam go without Dean for four months when Dean is in hell. But in Mystery Spot he has to endure 100 Tuesdays of watching Dean die and then when Dean dies on a Wednesday, he stays dead for (I believe) six months.

Dean couldn't handle a single day, yet Sam has to handle over a year.

For crying out loud--that's emotional and mental torture. Particularly when it seems there is nothing he can do to make it all right. He is rendered powerless.

Really, it's no wonder he was such a basket case when he couldn't strike a bargain to get Dean back or why he would be open to the idea of channeling his demon slaying abilities.

But the show hasn't taken what happened to Sam in MS all that seriously, and I wish they would. I'd hoped for that to occur in Changing Channels, but it didn't. The only reference we got to it was Dean talking about how he'd like to kick the Trickster's ass for what had happened to him. Seems to me like in many ways Sam was the bigger victim.

[varkelton]

{{{Group Sam!Girl Hug}}} I love you guys! Sure Sam made bad choices, but there were no clear reasons why they were so bad, and it sure didn't seem like there were any other reasonable choices at the time. Let's not forget the angels were being just as manipulative and self-serving as the demons... I'm a spoiler-phobe, but I heard last summer that the writers are pretty determined to parallel the blood thing with a "drugs are bad" message, and the first few episodes certainly seemed to bear that out. I doubt we're going to get a satisfactory resolution to this. But maybe they'll move away from this in the second half of the season and we'll get lucky. I'd love to see them deal fairly with some of Sam's issues. Here's hoping...

[ancastar.livejournal.com]

Here's hoping indeed! I'm keeping my fingers crossed tight (so hard to type... *g*) for Sam Interrupted. That looks very intriguing to me.

(((((((Group Sam!Girl Hug)))))))

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. Mystery Spot is one of my major bug bears. I loved the episode but to never refer to it again is amazing because of the trauma Sam suffer.

It's interesting to me though that his emotional response in MS was completely different to that after he dies in NRFW. One cold and unemotional and the other a total mess and very, very emotional. I wonder if that's because he wasn't able to save Dean from going to hell...?? Hmmm

The only reference we got to it was Dean talking about how he'd like to kick the Trickster's ass for what had happened to him.

You know, I read that as for what he did to Sam - because Dean wouldn't remember any of it. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking...? :)

Amd yeah, a little bit of me gets annoyed that Sam's motivations were explored a little more. Or more importantly, he's portrayed rather unsympathetically. Ungrateful and uncaring. (Stupid Yellow Fever didn't help is cause any either!)

(Joins in the Group Sam!Girl Hug with varkelton! :D

[varkelton]

Number 2 has been bugging me all season, because it seems like they've completely dropped the ball on it, but as I was reading the posts here, it occurred to me that maybe Sam hasn't told Dean that he doesn't need the blood because he's afraid of what Dean will think. If he needs the blood to use his powers, then Dean can cling to the belief that there is something outside of Sam that made him act the way he did. Something he can in fact monitor and partially control. If the powers are just Sam, well... I can see Sam being terrified of Dean's judgment on that... but I have a sinking feeling Show just dropped the ball...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes! Good thinking! I hadn't actually considered that Sam might not want Dean to know it isn't the blood that gave him the "powers". Ooh, that opens up some interesting ideas if they decide to play with that....

I think Show handles Sam's powers in strange ways sometimes. They were very important in Season 4, didn't see them in Season 3 and they seem to be off the agenda again in Season 5. Though I think they are mainly associated with making his "vessel" ready for Lucifer.

I am now even more curious and hopeful that they do something more with them later down the track.

Joins in Group Sam!Girl hug! :D

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Thoughts about 2:
Ruby wanted him to turn evil to unleash his powers. But she needed a trick to make him believe drinking the blood is just a necessity he is doing distracting from the fact that his choices opened up the door to his powers, not the blood. And the change within him is giving him demonic strength.

So he was tricked into his powers. Maybe the blood addiction shows that he is actually fighting his demonic side. Because if he would've chosen the dark side he would now have all the demonic power (without feeling bad about it) and blood addiction wouldn't be an issue anymore.
And he wouldn't have run out of "juice" for there would've been enough dark power without human consiousness. But then he wouldn't have wanted to kill Ruby anyway...
(I hope that makes sense, I alway find it hard to put my feelings about something into words.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey! I know what you mean about putting feelings into words.... it's why I rarely post this kinda stuff.

And yes. I can see that Ruby tricked him all along, but I particularly like the idea that the very notion that having the blood in him made him think he could exorcise demons with his mind and in turn he did. Eek! That made no sense. But basically, what you said!

:D

xx

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I think we are making enough sense to understand each other...lol.

=D

[secretlytodream.livejournal.com]

Why is Dean so hard on Sam with the choices he made after his death?
Guilt. I think. because really - it's all Dean's fault. Sam died, Dean made a deal - Dean died, Sam made all the wrong choice. It's a chain of events, that's connected to the first point which was Sam's death (unintentionally) and Dean's deal. Yeah, it sound rude, but seriously - Dean's the man.

Speaking about the demon blood, I think it was just a kick to make Sam believe tat he actually has the powers. It's like, "I gave you the power water - Really? - No, it was just water". But Sam believed that there was something that helped him to kill demons, so...I think so anyway.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I see Dean feeling very guilty but there are times I would love to see him being a little more understanding of Sam. Though I know that's part of the Dean package and he is also dealing with the traumas of hell as well as everything else. And yes, Sam's death certainly triggered all these events... if only he hadn't turned his back on Jake.... Or really he should have killed Jake. But that would have been very "un-Sam" like in season 2.

Thanks hun! :)

(Your icon is freaky!)

[secretlytodream.livejournal.com]

Ah, it's Dean after all. He's always right, you know? I think it's the exactly reaction he could have.

LOL my whole new layout is freaky. I'll frek all the people away lol Nobody will ever watch my vids haha

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'll frek all the people away lol Nobody will ever watch my vids

Not possible my dear!! People will always watch your gorgeous vids.

I really like your layout - that image in so striking and, well, creepy. Amazing really - I can't stop staring at it. :)

[secretlytodream.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe just in fear of me myself LOL

Ah, stare as long as you want )) It'll take some time to getting used to it. It's pretty weird how I came from black all over the white all over ))

[dinalori.livejournal.com]

Well, damn it. LJ ate my first post. :( I'll try and remember what I was trying to say.

Re: the demon blood, I think it was Ruby's way of getting Sam addicted to her. By making him need her blood (and don't forget the sex) she was able to control him, make sure he used his powers for what she wanted and only let him think he was the one in control. Think back to the other PKs particularly Ava. She had the exact same ability as Sam, and when she gave into it she gained the ability to control demons. Which is kinda what Sam was doing. I've never thought the powers were, in themselves, evil even though they came from an evil source. Look at Andy. He developed his powers to the point that he could send Dean a psychic message from miles away and he never turned eveil. And look at Jessie from this season. He's the offspring of a demon and the antichrist, but he doesn't want to hurt people. And Dean even called him awsome. (which I kinda have a problem with-the antichrist is awesome for the way he used his demon given powers but his brother is a monster for the way he used his?? o_O)

Which brings me to Dean. I don't know, maybe he feels that he ultimately failed at saving Sam. Because yes, Sam is alive, but he gave into his "psychic crap" which Dean never trusted in the first place, and chose to trust Ruby, another thing on Dean's "Do not trust" list. Some of the first things that Dean asks Sam about after they reunite in LR is what happened to Ruby and has he been using his powers. So maybe he feels that he still screwed up his one job like he was saying in AHBL2? I don't know if I'm explaining this right. :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Well, damn it. LJ ate my first post

Damn! Don't you hate that. I like that LJ automatically saves entries when posting, but it doesn't save comment entries... grrr..

Re: the demon blood, I think it was Ruby's way of getting Sam addicted to her.

Yes. And I really liked your argument here. That makes a lot of sense. I figured it was a way of controlling him, but I wasn't sure why she really needed to do that. But, in reference to the other PKs (particularly Ava), it makes more sense. Without her "control" Sam could do anything, even turn on her. Or he might not have followed through on his full potential. And of course he had to be able to kill Lilith to break the last seal, so she needed to make she he was going to do that.

Oh yay. That's really rounded off my thinking on that. :)

Ah yes. Dean. His feelings of guilt have been mentioned a few times. And I believe Dean does have a lot of guilt and obviously that has manifested itself into him being unforgiving of Sam using his powers and siding with Ruby. And I can see that Dean is trying to be more understanding in S5... I suppose I wish he'd stop mentioning it to Sam. The guilt Sam is carrying now must at least equal the guilt Dean has been carrying.... hmmm. It's a tricky one. (Must be why I love my show so much!)

Thanks for sharing your thought here hun! They make a lot of sense to me. :)

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'd never thought of the Croatoan demon actually being Meg - don't know why really as now it sounds just perfect, but at the time I just thought he was another of YED progeny. Cool though and I think I'll adopt this one, especially as Meg has been turning up again.

The demon blood thing, oh, isn't it a mess? But then so many other things about Sam's motivations and when exactly he took to drinking the blood are missing in canon. When I was vidding Fallen I went through all this, without any final results but the conclusions I came to were hopefully in the vid. My thoughts are - no, Sam doesn't actually need the blood to use his powers, but I do think that the blood was addictive, I think it gave him a high he wasn't aware of and I think Ruby used it to tie him to her and keep him off balance and feeling physically weak without it.

Again I don't have proof of anything but I think there was a turning point at Head of a Pin, I know many think Sam was always drinking from Ruby, but I tend to think he was using his powers limited with his own doubts about himself turning evil keeping him from the true potential of his powers. For me, he only started drinking from Ruby then, thinking that would boost his powers as she had been tempting him with for the one intent - save Dean from Alastair. He didn't need it, his anger with the angels would have been enough, but he believed then that he needed Ruby's blood to give him that extra power. Right there I think for me Sam decided that anything he could do to save Dean would be worth the price, still hoping that if he turned evil Dean would be alive to put him down. Sam's lived with the horrible guilt of not being able to save Dean, a promise he made and couldn't keep and to me right there he gave up on himself and went with Ruby and the plan to kill Lilith at all costs, I really think he thought it would work and he could do it and it would save the world from the apocalypse.

Sadly it wasn't to be as all sides conspired against the Winchester brothers for their own gain - but let's be fair to Sam here, his plan was the only plan on the table. Castiel was under the influence of Zachariah and they had no plans that didn't include keeping Sam on track to kill Lillith.

I understand how upset and betrayed Dean was, but I also understand the grief and undeniable pain Sam was in from watching Dean being pulled apart by the hounds and by his own memories once he got back. That guilt, knowing his life was that price? I think that fuelled Sam to do what he did and damn the consequences.

What the hell has happened to his powers now? Shit if I know, but a lot of stuff hasn't made much sense this year, how did Bobby get possessed? WFT was that about them getting zapped on board a plane? How did anyone explain that and why was it necessary for anything? Why did they think the colt could kill an angel? I'm baffled...as you can tell. :))

[stormcloude]

I think there was a turning point at Head of a Pin

For me they were too familiar with the "ritual" of him drinking her blood for it to be new at that point. I think the turning point was in Criss Angel when she came and tempted him, then he willingly went with her in the end. That's when I think he started embracing his powers and drinking her blood for good.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, yes, I do see your point there, but for me the Criss Angel episode was where Sam decided to make a plan with Ruby and take action without Dean, but to me he was still determined at that point to do things his way, I think he knew about taking the blood and I think she'd offered her arm and enticed him to partake to strengthen his powers quickly before, but he hadn't.

In Head of the Pin, it was the danger Dean was in that caused him to throw caution to the wind - say "this is it, I don't care if it turns me evil" it was an all or nothing suicide bid to get Dean back and this is where his powers went into overload and he burnt Alastair to a crisp, surprising even Castiel. He thought the huge power boost was just from the blood when actually it was his anger and hatred that did it.

Heck, I'm probably miles off, but that's just the way it seems to fit best for me. Kripke is bound to blow it all out of the water soon anyway! *G*

[stormcloude]

I can see your viewpoint too. Kripke really botched things leaving so much of Sam's story in the shadows in season 4. I doubt we'll ever know how it really was supposed to be interpreted.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Yep, I totally agree with this, he's really left so much of Sam's motivational story that far in the dark it's lost all sympathy for many fans and that's a damned shame.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

don't know why really as now it sounds just perfect, but at the time I just thought he was another of YED progeny

Yeah. I've been having this conversation with tahirire and she said that the Duane demon was Meg. And, like you I just thought he was another of YED progeny. I makes sense that it could have been Meg, though I think I agree with what most peeps have said here - I think they would have made it clearer if it had been Meg. Being one of the major OC's.

The demon blood thing, oh, isn't it a mess?

Oh yay. I'm not the only one who thinks so! (and I'm definitely getting that vibe from some of the responses here that lots of other peeps think so too).

Sam doesn't actually need the blood to use his powers, but I do think that the blood was addictive

Yes. I think I've come to that understanding too. Sam doesn't need the blood - and as dinalori pointed out the other PKs didn't need "enhancement" to use their powers so there's some good evidence to back that up. But it makes sense that the blood is addictive (well, to Sam anyway). Sam likes the high and strength it gives him and there must be something in it to keep him coming back for more.... it certainly screwed him up when he was coming off it.

but I think there was a turning point at Head of a Pin,

I have to say I've never contemplated when he started drinking it. It only came to light at the end of S4, so I suppose I figured it was some time toward the end. Though there's an episode where Ruby comes to Sam and says something like "I know you don't like it, but you need it" - something like that, and at the time I think we are meant to think that she's talking about using his powers, but I think she's referring to drinking her blood. This suggests that he has had it before. (Actually I'm going to have to check up on this, because I have no idea which ep that's from, but I think this might help pin point when he might have started drinking it.....) Hee! Watch this space.... I'm curious about this now. But I have to dash in a minute so I can't check it now...)

but I also understand the grief and undeniable pain Sam was in from watching Dean being pulled apart by the hounds and by his own memories once he got back.

I'm so glad you said this because it's one of my main focuses on the Sam vid I'm making - watching his brother die like that (and his guilt for letting it happen) being the main catalyst for basically all his choices in S4.

Hee! And questions at the end.... oh yes! There's certainly A LOT of unanswered questions! ggrrrrr.


I'll be back.......

[ash48.livejournal.com]

All right.... I'm back! (this won't make sense if you haven't read my other comment....)

So. In Chris Angel, Sam says "It's not the Psychic thing I've got a problem with" and Ruby says "I know you don't like it" and then later she says. "just admit to yourself that you like it"...

I reckon she's referring to the blood drinking here. Sam's tried it, liked and and knows it makes him more powerful. He just doesn't like the idea of it.

And then later in Head of a Pin, he realises he needs it to get rid of Alistair. Of course we get no indication if he's used it between CA and HoP, but I'd say he started using it sometime before Chris Angel ... maybe even as early as It's the Great Pumpkin (the last time he full on exorcised a demon).

Hmm... not sure of course. But you've got me thinking about it now!! :D

:D

[dinalori.livejournal.com]

There was something that was itching at the back of my mind all day and I just remembered what it was.

I just rechecked my S4 DVD and in Heaven and Hell Ruby chastises Sam about his abilities "getting flabby" and that he knows what he needs to do to "tone up" but Sam insists he's not going to do that anymore. So he'd obviously used demon blood before then, possibly even before Dean came back. It was in 4.4 "Metamorphosis" that he decided to give up using his powers, so I'm guessing he'd been on demon blood before that point, quit, then in CA decided he'd do what was necessary to "cut the head off the snake." In Pin he said it had been weeks since he last had it, and CA was three weeks before then so that might have been the last time....

0_0 ...Ok, I've clearly been thinking about this way too much. ;D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ahh. Yes. Good pick up.

You know there are few references to the "something else" that Sam was doing. Even when he says he's giving up using his powers in Metamorphosis he says something like giving it "all" up. I reckon he could be referring to the blood taking here as well.

I think it probably started quite early on.. maybe even when Dean was away.(?) It's just not something he was ever comfortable about. And I can imagine he really did want to give it all up when Dean returned. But it ended up being harder than he thought it would be... especially as the demons got harder and harder to pull. And when Dean was in danger, there was no question (I think) about doing what had to be done....

0_0 ...Ok, I've clearly been thinking about this way too much. ;D

Hee! I don't think you're the only one hun! There's lots off peeps doing some pretty interesting thinking.... :)

I'll be keen to hear what el1ie thinks...

xx

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I'm going back and forth on all these posts and trying to make some kind of sense of it all, seeing all the evidence put forward it's clear that Sam and Ruby were doing some sort of blood thingy, before Head of a Pin.

Maybe, and I'm only throwing this out there, maybe she first gave it him as some sort of "cure"? Remember how much pain he was in, the nose bleeds and headaches? What if she first gave him the blood from a flask, would it have less of an effect on him? I do remember - Metamorphosis was it (?) - she asks about the headaches, so maybe it started like that. Then he was struggling to only release a portion of his powers, which I still believe he did - he tells Dean he knows what he's doing and he can control it, Jake seemed to talk about flipping a switch and he had far more powers than Sam seems to have at this point - so I'm guessing he was also trying NOT to turn them all on? Maybe the Demon blood wasn't the power boost early in his training partly because he isn't taking the blood right then direct from her vein? He thinks that practice is the of using his powers within limits, the blood helps him recover. She says if he feeds directly from her, he wouldn't need to practice, the power would be his but that limitless power isn't want he wants, he just wants to kill demons without killing the host.

Does that make any sense?

We know he did away with a great demon Samhein quite early on, 4x07, but he suffered for it, the pain and the bleeding were very much in evidence. Chriss Angel was 4x12, where he decides to make plans with Ruby - he'd been trying to do things Dean's way, but wasn't getting anywhere, so was going back to Ruby to start training again and hunt down Lillith. 4x15 Death takes a Holiday and he's much stronger, feels able to take on Alastair, but still not strong enough to stop Alastair from escaping, he is more confident though. 4x16 Head of a Pin and he walks in to that warehouse and just blasts Alastiar out of existence - I think through his own anger - but I'm thinking now he could have believed the extra boost came from feeding off Ruby directly.

Buggered if I know really, a possible explanation.

I'm so glad you said this because it's one of my main focuses on the Sam vid I'm making - watching his brother die like that (and his guilt for letting it happen) being the main catalyst for basically all his choices in S4.

I think the images in my mind of what happened after Dean died from being ripped to shreds by the hounds haunt my visions of Sam and will always, he must have taken him from the house, all that blood and torn flesh and driven him to that field, made a crude wooden box, dug a pit and placed his brother, his only family in there and then taken the shovel and filled in the dirt. It's horrifying to think of it. I've never checked to see if Dean arose in the same clothes and Castiel mended them, but there's also a big part of my vision that's filled with Sam cleaning his brother and dressing him for his grave. Quite honestly - which ever version happened Sam buried Dean and placed a cross at his head and all that with the memory of making a promise that Dean wasn't going to go to hell. Sam could never, ever forget that and those memories are still there.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Heya! Hee! Yep - lots of ideas being chucked around here and I love it. :)

Does that make any sense?

Absolutely and I really love the idea that it could have been, initially, a way to help Sam through the pain of exorcising. I just can't imagine in my mind the first time Sam would have said yes to Ruby - he must have been extremely down and quite possibly in a lot of pain. Yeah - that's working for me for sure.

I like your thinking on the progression as well. Makes sense and considering we really have nothing to go on the best we can do is speculate.

And oh my. You're breaking my heart here with the details of Sam having to bury Dean. I actually wanted to show that in my vid. I wanted to use a clip of Sam digging a grave, but I couldn't find a suitable one. I've settle for a shot of the cross in the hope that all of that can be imagined....*sniff* Oh Sammy!

Thanks Ellie. I've enjoyed exploring the issue of when Sam started drinking blood. As I said earlier it's not something I'd give much thought to. *g* I have now!

xx

[dinalori.livejournal.com]

I wanted to use a clip of Sam digging a grave, but I couldn't find a suitable one. o_0 Really?? With all the grave digging they do in the show you couldn't find a shot that would work? Huh. *eyes stack of DVDs and VHS tapes* Uh.. you done making that vid? Cause I could always.... ya know.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

No, I'm only half way through making the vid.

And I admit I didn't think too hard about it. I tried to use the one from Roadkill. His expression doesn't work so well - the shovel was ok though.

But yeah - if you can think of any I still may be able to incorporate it. It needs to be just Sam, with a shovel. I also thought about Manipping him in looking at the cross, but I'd need to find a suitable shot of Sam to do that.... and my brain just started hurting... :)

But if you come across any I can see what I can do with it. But don't go to too much trouble hun.
:)

[dinalori.livejournal.com]

Wow. I'm surprised that out of more than 90 episodes there's only been the one scene of Sam doing a salt & burn alone. Even the ones where Sam was doing the digging you can always see Dean just off to the side.

*shrug* Well, I tried.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey there. Thanks so much for looking. And I know. You'd think there would be more...

Each time I'm looking for a particular scene for a vid I go through each episode mentally and basically try to remember what's in it. Of course the more episodes there are the harder that's getting. I confess to not really thinking too hard on that one, so thanks for checking for me!

*hugs*

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I've had a great time too sorting stuff out in a very friendly atmosphere - I tend to steer away from conversations like this as I'm terrible at remembering dialogue! Spend too much time scrolling for visuals I think, this has really helped me think too, so thanks very much for that.

And yes, for the record I think they dropped the ball for never allowing the audience to openly grieve WITH Sam - Mystery Spot included, flashback was too late and too little, too focused on finding Ruby a clean body and not on what Sam was going through. But they constantly do this and I don't know why - why DID Sam take that first drink of demon blood - it's a huge step and why or why did he say yes to Lucifer? Just being absent from Dean doesn't cut it for me. I want to know, but I don't think I ever will and after a while it really gets me mad.

I would kill for some of those scenes to vid with...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I tend to steer away from conversations like this

And I usually do to! But everyone has been lovely and I've had a ball listening to everyone's ideas and thoughts on stuff.

I would kill for some of those scenes to vid with...

I know exactly what you mean. The vid I'm working on is pretty long and I would am desperate for more "Sam after Dean's dead" footage. I think I've squeezed every possible shot out of "I know what you did last summer"!!

I always wonder that if we didn't have the writers strike last year, whether we would have had an episode to explore Sam's post trauma from Mystery Spot. I would like to think so... But knowing them probably not.

[geckoholic]

Your icon! CUTE!

On 2., I'm hoping we'll get that one answered on the show. Right now, it's kind of a "depends on your view" sort of thing, and I don't like those much.
I, personally, think that Sam's not willingly choosing not to go there, but that he's afraid to go anywhere near using his powers that way again, after everything that happened.

And I'm with you on the not-question. Dean REALLY should cut himn a little slack there. *nods*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Your icon! CUTE!

Hee! missyjack made all these lol cat graphics at the end of season 3 so I had a friend make some of them into icons for me because I just loved them.

And yes, answers would be nice. And we are mostly left with individual takes on what certain things can mean. Especially Sam's motivations and the whole blood question....

Hee! The not-question! :D That "question" certainly generated a bit of discussion...

:D