10.23 Poll

[ash48]

A little late, but I'm still keen to know what you all thought. :)

[Poll #2012232]

I still have a few comments to reply to on my original 10.23 post, and I hope to get to them soon. :))



Hearing Jensen say that the writers write the season finales (since S5) without a clue how they'll get themselves out if it confirms my new found (solid) understanding that there really is no journey from the beginning of a season to the end of it. I did think that maybe Carver had a 3 year plan when he took over in S8, but if they don't know how a season will end, then I have to assume that there's been no thought put into any continuous character or myth arc journey. And it's clear now that he didn't. I'm not saying that's a bad thing (and I don't think it would be if you don't watch the show for overall themes or character arcs), just disappointing. To keep throwing the boys into these ethical, moral and personal dilemmas without some sort of resolution is just frustrating. If you make Dean do something like he did at the beginning of S9, surely it has to end some sort of comment about it. Jensen believes that the MoC story started for Dean at 9.01 (which I agree with), but I never got the sense that the show/writers thought that. They both suffered as a result of it and yet neither seem to have come away with any understanding it. Though, maybe there's a plan in that. If they understood any of that they would be too "healthy" to be our beloved, screwed up Winchesters…;)

Aaanyway. I could yabber on about all that for ages, but I'm not sure there are any answers. If they don't write in answers (and jump from idea to idea) then I'm just not sure it's even worth nutting out. Though I'll always be interested in fanon ideas… :D

Comments

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I cried, I gasped, I cried some more, I breathed a huge sigh of relief, then I gasped again. As soon as the credits rolled I felt like I'd seen a pretty damn perfect episode. Still reeling!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Great to hear! It did have some gasp worthy moments that's for sure! :D

[fanspired]

I've finally recognized that what we're watching now is an action soap opera. Which is fine if you like soap opera, I suppose. What I find disturbing is the recent conversation about this show being marketed to young me between 18-30. I believe the original 5 seasons told a morality tale about the dangers of the hero myth. It highlighted the corrupting effects of living with a wartime mentality. The intention was to highlight a contemporary problem. Now the show has become part of the problem. It troubles me that it is rubber stamping increasing levels of violence and marketing it to young men as heroic behaviour.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Both these points are very interesting.

Firstly, I still struggle with believing the show is marketed to men between 18-30. I don't doubt the info, it just seems crazy - considering the "soap" element surely isn't appealing to that demographic. I know the thing my hubby hates most about the show is all the "chick flick" moments (and that's from S1!). I would have said this demo would be into lots of action, less bromance and more kick ass women (maybe?).

I hate the thought that Show is promoting or rubber stamping the boys level of violence and world endangering behaviour as heroic. I still think there is a level of "comment" about all that, even though it's not obvious - or perhaps it's they way I am choosing to read it. I think there is definitely a level of heroism portrayed by the boys, but it's been a long time since I've consider them as actual heroes - they just do to many things that put others and the world in danger due to their selfish need to keep the other alive. That said, I think it's that theme that's still interesting to me and I sincerely hope they do explore that much more next season.

[fanspired]

What's probably more the case with the marketing is that the show wants to keep all its balls in the air. Yes, they want that lucrative male demographic, but they also know that the twitter and tumblr trends are important for keeping the show high profile and that's mainly dominated by young girls. So they make sure to include episodes that'll satisfy both those audiences. And they probably imagine that the soap opera element will take care of most of the show's original core audience of mature women. In other words, they're aiming for a broad demographic appeal. What they don't seem to be interested in any longer is the kind of analytical audiences that followed shows like the X Files, Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Supernatural in its first 5 seasons. I presume that's working for them. Well, it's got them up to 10 seasons and beyond which is more than Buffy and the X Files got. On the other hand, I thought I read that the show's viewing figures were never better than in its first season, but maybe things were different back then, I don't know.

> I still think there is a level of "comment" about all that, even though it's not obvious.

I'd agree with that, more so in some writers than others though, but I'd say that moral comment is very low priority and certainly not worth alienating the viewers that think BAMF is cool or sexy, or those that think that the brothers 'saving' each other justifies any amount of (other people's) bloodshed. (I remember a time when 'saving' each other meant something a bit deeper than merely keeping each other alive). Overwhelmingly these days I feel the impression the show leaves glorifies rather than condemns violence. All the characters the audience is inclined to trust pat the Winchesters on the back and tell them they're good men, heroes fighting the good fight. And the casualty list is regrettable collateral damage, but it's all for the greater good, isn't it? How many actually look at the ledger and weigh the damage the brothers have done over the years against the comparative few people they've saved? Sure, Crowley has made that point a few times but he's a demon. Who listens to him? (They should). And, granted, Dean made it, too, but he was totally under the MOC and about to kill Sam at the time so we can dismiss that, too. Sam's still insisting that Dean's a good man, it's just the thing on his arm that's evil (never mind that for years longer than he's had the mark the family business has been "hunting things - saving people's a bonus but, meh - let's just kill something.") The impression I get is that the vast majority of the audience take it all at face value: Sam and Dean are heroes. They don't question that. There was a while back last year when I started wondering if the writers were conducting a social experiment to see how far they could debase Dean's character before the audience recognized that he'd become a monster. And they gave up when they accepted it would never happen.

I think the first half of season 9 was the last genuine attempt to address moral issues and the attempt was abandoned because the majority of viewers just didn't want to hear it. And, one by one, the writers who still care about story and meaning are leaving. As for the one or two still hanging on . . . well, I think some of the comments Robbie Thompson made in his Q&A recently spoke volumes.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think some of the comments Robbie Thompson made in his Q&A recently spoke volumes.

Ooh, do you have a link to those?

I so often fluctuate in my thoughts about what the writers/show are/is thinking. There are times when it seems like that they are really aware of the conflict between them being heroes and them, well, not. The fact that it's mentioned and even explored suggested that there is definitely an awareness. This season was supposedly about seeing both of them as monsters - Dean as a demon and Sam prepared to do whatever it takes to save Dean. The only problem is, they seem to lack the conviction to see that theme through. Whether it's because it's too soon to fully address it (leaving it for the series finale) or because they are too scared to, it's hard to know. The fact that Sam even talked about them being "good" suggests that it's something that remains a theme.

I think the Show treads a fine line. How to portray the protagonists as "heroes" (or the good guys who we connect to) and yet show them in all their tainted glory because of the evil they are surrounded by. I sometimes wonder that the sheer fact that we are discussing it means that conflict or dilemma is being successfully examined. I know not everyone pulls it apart like we do - but I think the danger they put other people and the world in, is made pretty obvious. The fact that Sam and Dean don't see it, doesn't mean we can't. The fine line is there again when we want to see that ridiculous love and devotion to each other (well, I know its what I want to see), but we also want to see that THEY become aware of how dangerous their co-dependency. I would love to have an outsider pov episode where we really get to see the impact of their relationship outside of what the winchesters see.

I swear if I was a writer I would be able to articulate that better. I just watched a vid by secretelytodream and it reminded me that this is an epic love story between two brothers. We can see the damage, the pain, the hurt, the sacrifices, the utter screwed up nature of their relationship but we also see them as people we love and cheer on. What the casual viewer sees I'll never know, but maybe they do see past them as badass heroes and rather as a dark and dangerous force.

But yeah. At the moment I think we are seeing half hearted attempts to really examine those important themes. But maybe the fact that those themes are still on the table is potentially encouraging.

[fanspired]

Bit of an afterthought: I think the aborted "Bloodlines" pilot kind of provided a means of taking the moral temperature of the current writing team when it had its lead character shoot a human being out of revenge in the first episode. Compare that to the story arc that had Sam wallow in steadily increasing moral grey areas for four years to bring him to the point where he unequivocally and premeditatedly took a human life, and Sam had to cast himself into the cage for all eternity to redeem himself from that crime. The producers of Bloodlines had the 'hero' kill a human character in the first episode, without blinking. There was no sense that they were making a moral issue of it. The impression I got was that they just didn't see anything wrong with it. I think it was interesting that the episode bombed so badly because it indicated what the fans really thought of the current writing when, for once, they didn't see it through the lens of the enormous good will that the characters of Sam and Dean bring with them from the original show.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* For me the thing they do now that they didn't do before is kill off meat suit by the dozens. Remember when killing ONE meat suit was a major issue?! Remember when Sam wanted to save meat suits by using his powers to exorcise their demons rather than us a blade or gun?! Innocent people are simply no longer an issue. It's one of the saddest things for me about how the show has evolved. That episode where they made Mrs Tran kill her demon captor was truly horrifying. No attempt at saving the innocent people trapped inside. She was made to murder an innocent person.

It's sad that the "saving people" is really not part of their motto any more. It seems that the act of killing is much more important, in terms of story telling, than the act of saving.

And Bloodlines was truly dreadful. You make a good point about what's acceptable from our heroes. Sam and Dean get away with A LOT because we've been on the journey with them. Though I'm sure Carver is determined to make them as unlikable as he can. There was a time that I was sure he hated the characters. I'm still not convinced he actually likes them that much.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I loved it while watching it. Got swept away by the action, the emotion and the unexpected. I cried when Sam pulled out the photos of the family for Dean. Later I felt nearly guilty for feeling this way (the ep, not just the one scene). As if I was betraying the "old" Supernatural with proper season myth arcs and character development and such. As if I was now just getting high on "insta drama" and action without real depth. Fast food.. Does that make me weird? This ep really grabbed me, pulled me in. Left me shocked. And yet it is like I'm cheering for a different show. That I have a different relationship with. (Since Carver). It's strange.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think it's great to cheerlead the show! I am constantly looking for any little bit that makes me have that squee that I used to feel. And there were a few moments this season that definitely had me doing that. I had a tear at that very moment too! And I loved that. I desperately want to feel that and I love that the show can still do it.

But I know what you mean. There are times I don't want to give Carver anything - not a single tear! But actually, it's the Js commitment and performances that I'm giving my heart to. There's no doubt about the love and commitment everyone puts into the show so there are times it's hard to be overly critical. It's just those moments when you want to shake it and say "I know you can do better!". (actually check out galwithglasses comment below. She sums it up rather perfectly).

*hugs*

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

Omg, i feel the exact same way and I thought it was only me. I swear since Carver took over it's like we're watching the Winchesters from a different dimension it's a different show with the same people. I think I'm going to have to start thinking of the show pre season five and post season five because you're right it is totally different and yet I'm still here...

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

and yet I'm still here...

Lol, I'm sure somebody must have tied us to the chair or something, because I've been wanting to leave a few times now but I just can't. Addicted to Supernatural and now stuck with Carvernatural... :P ;)

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

I think most shows are written like that though hun, unless they have a ten or fifteen year plan, which would be hubris personified, then most show runners have no clue after their initial ideas have run their course. I think half the fun is seeing where it goes and how :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

That's true. And as it goes, they probably fair better than some. Though I have no idea because I've never followed a show this long - not have I been as invested or focussed on story lines etc. The fact that it's still going and still have a very strong fan base has to be testament to them doing something right…;)

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

*grins* Exactly :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

What excited me most about this finale was the massive potential for next season - which probably won't materialise on screen but I'm sure will fuel hundreds of bloody fantastic fanworks during hiatus! So I'm all fired up and happy as a result.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes yes!! I love the way it opened up some great potential. To think we have:

No Death - so what happens to all the dying people?!
The Darkness - which could be ANYTHING at the moment!
Cas about to kill Crowley - which might introduce a "new" Cas in S11 maybe?
Evil!Crowley is back!
Rowena on the loose!
The other Stynes seeking revenge
The boys in peril!
And ...

a miserable Impala for not being able to get her boys out of trouble. :((

So yeah. There's room to move, that's for sure. :DD

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

As founder and president of the Jeremy Carver Has No Plan Club, I'm happy to welcome you as a member!

*hands you membership card and bottle of Merlot*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*proudly pockets shiny membership card and downs the Merlot in a flash* :)

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

What Jensen said makes SO much sense. How do you keep raising the stakes on a show that has already had the apocalypse, Purgatory, a new God, the angels falling from the sky? You can't! So they come up with shit that comes out of nowhere. I was soooo pissed. I'm tired of being pissed after I watch the show.

The brother moments grabbed me, Rowena grabbed me, as for the rest? That ending, JFC. Anyway, I'm in a ranty mcrant mode so I'll stop there.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

haha! Well, I've been enjoying some of the excitement for the potential for next season so that's helped me accept the problems that arose from the finale.

I have NO idea how they can possibly raise the stakes higher than they already have - I think fans will probably come up with awesome ideas that can't/won't be realised next season. A "real" apocalyptic landscape would be amazing, but I just can't see how they'll manage it -not just because of their limited budget, but their MoTW format wouldn't fit (though maybe one ep?).

We'll see I suppose.
xx

[badbastion.livejournal.com]

It felt a little scattered to me, not 100% coherent. But I still loved it. I felt dread before I watched it, like, will this be a terrible episode? Or will it be one of those episodes that destroys me? It kind of destroyed me, and that's a good thing. I can't wait to see what The Darkness will bring, and I totally agree with amberdreams about hellatus fanworks. I'm hoping for Dark!Sam and Dark!Dean, but I know we've already had those, so we're not gonna be lucky enough to get them again, lol.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I felt dread too! I was SO relieved when it finished and I wasn't feeling depressed about it all. I mean, I was head scratching, but not thinking WTF?! They wouldn't do that?! I also felt that at least there was an attempt to resolve things - especially the MoC, so that was also a relief.

Can't wait to see what fandom produces over the break! I think the ending opened up all sorts of possibilities. :)

[aletheiafelinea.livejournal.com]

To keep throwing the boys into these ethical, moral and personal dilemmas without some sort of resolution is just frustrating.
Yeah, this. On their place I'd try to think out some arc just in case, even if it would be to change on the way... Also, don't they talk with each other, or what? However, I must say I very much appreciate Jensen's honesty about it. The irony is, it's not even his fault - he suffers on it as much as we! it's the material he gets to work with after all - and yet apparently he feels he owes us an explanation for the writers' faults. There's an idiom in my native language for such things: "to shine with one's eyes for someone / on someone's behalf", meaning that the one doing shining is in a pretty awkward position.

As for the season finale, it had good moments, but also awful and bewildering ones (Death's death??? come on... Also Dean seemed to change his mind and feelings - or lack of thereof - by a minute, back and forth; this was really confusing, and still I'm not really sure what it was about, exactly). Still, I'm interested what's next. (Especially if the lack of death in the universe is going to be a thing. A problem to cope with and all.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I would love to hear what Jensen (and Jared) really think about the material they are given. I know they have "spoken" to Carver in the past - and Jared has expressed his dislike of what they did to Sam in the beginning of S8. I suppose they are just the "talent", so would mostly have to go along with it all. But I would also suspect they have a bit of power also. It seems the shows continuation is solely dependant on then - so they would have a bit of leverage I'd think.

I am hoping they do something interesting with the lack of Death in the universe. It would mean them going back to check past canon, and I'm not sure how often they do that. The boys are going to have a lot of "undead" people on their hands if there's no death. Hmmmm…zombies maybe...

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Like we discussed earlier, I'm enjoying it more now that I'm not trying to make a whole lotta sense of it, and I'm staying unspoiled. Having no expectations going in is waaaay helpful.

My initital reaction was "Oooh, Deano-o, hot. Er, okay, what? Yay, Rowena! SAM, DON'T CLOSE YOUR EYES, DARLING BOY! Nooooo, not Death! For realz??"

So I was kinda all over the place, waffling between delight and kinda scoffing. I haven't watched it a second time yet--just got busy--but I probably will tonight, so that I can niggle the details.

Writing for TV seems to be pretty loosy-goosie. They may have a generalized end game for a season, but how they get there is totally fluid throughout the year. Which is how having a really opinionated and more thorough head writer/show runner (Kripke) could well succeed where a less focused one (Carver) doesn't quite so much. (This is just my observation.) Carver may be a lot more pleasant to work for, however. Not such a nit-picker.

I'm a little torn on The Darkness! If they keep it this big amorphous, inhuman chaos ... I'll dig it. If they try to personify it, though, like cram it into a meatsuit? MEH. I'd love for them to go all post-Apocalyptic-ish with it, have The Darkness alter the world (a la End'verse!) That could be super cool and reinvent SPN's universe once again. They didn't go there with the Leviathan storyline, though, so I don't know if they'd have the gumption to do it now. But that's my hope!

I've also heard lots of fan talk about potentially needing archangels to defeat The Darkness, and that might mean freeing Lucifer and Michael. O.o! Oh, man, that would SO be my jam. And if Adam got sprung but has long since become a demon? *gets a little excited*

So, hmm! While this may not have been the most bombastic or surprising season ender we've witnessed, it could go places. I'm kinda looking forward to see where they take it!

[becc-j.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here, I just really like your comments and want to agree that I hope they keep the Darkness as inhuman chaos, as you say, I think that could really bring some horror movie style feels. Ok that's my two cents *disappears again*

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Wait, who was that masked woman?? ;)

[becc-j.livejournal.com]

You'll never guess my thinly veiled secret identity!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The is no doubt that Dean was super hot as badass MoC!Dean. Jensen really seemed to enjoy playing that different side to Dean (I think?!).

They may have a generalized end game for a season, but how they get there is totally fluid throughout the year.

And I think each writer adds a little "something" and then it's not fully played out. Like, they mentioned that Cain still had the Mark in one episode and then nothing was done with that (also opens the question does Lucifer still have the mark?). Carver brought back something that happened in the first 3 episodes of the season (Sam leading that guy to make a deal to sell his soul) and it seems so out of the blue. It was like he was hanging on the that nugget since he wrote the opening episode. I know Robbie will often bring back things he's written about earlier also. So yeah, I think by the time each writer has added their bit, things change. Carver seemed determined to make Sam some sort of monster this season. I'm pleased to say that I don't think it stuck - mostly because how on earth could anyone see Sam as a monster after everything Dean had done? Maybe it was about evening their monsterness out or something.

Re the Darkness - I can't see how they won't be able to personify it. Unless it's about things it touches (but not possess)? Even then, people will have to somehow be involved. If the Darkness altered the world somehow it would be amazing. What would it be like for Sam and Dean to emerge from the Impala and find themselves in a completely different type of world. Maybe no ones knows them, things are similar but slightly off and everyone has a darkness about them. Also, there might be a lot of zombies about because no one is able to die. :)) It would be so cool. It might only have to exist for a few episodes before they somehow restore things (because they'll have to return to their normal format I'd think..).

I'd LOVE to see Lucifer return. That would be awesome! :))

I think it has a lot of potential. Will it be realised? Only time will tell!

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I have to agree that it's been really directionless. A lot of 'let's throw this at the wall and see if it sticks.' They've bailed on unpopular storylines but not early enough to ignore them so then they've just felt dropped. The crew does one thing with lighting etc. but then those cues don't go anywhere. Hello, fuzzy, overly colorful dreamlike Amelia, I'm looking at you. A lot of it has been rehashed S1-5 with the boys reversed and they are cramming characters into a plot they want rather than following a natural development of the characters. They keep getting stuck with trying to make some sense out of a whole season of episodes with the first episode, the hiatus cliffhanger and the last three or so eps. They are also stuck trying to outdo the previous big bad until now we have Ultimate Darkness. Next, chitauri.

I have to say that they are still managing good stand alone episodes though. They've also introduced some pretty interesting characters. They've been really fortunate with their casting and had some awesome guests. I'm tired of characters getting killed off so that somebody has to Do Something as a response though. That kind of storytelling gets weaker as the seasons progress. Why get invested and care when we know they're all doomed anyway? (Except, apparently Metatron...wait, what?) They've also got a couple of long time characters that it has taken seasons to develop some type of consistency with. Cas and Crowley have both been all over the map as far as a particular version of these guys we are going to see in any given season. Frankly, even Sam has had a lot of variation in they way they've written him. Don't even get me going on retcon.

As bothersome as those things have been, the worst thing for me is that in pursuit of some sort of direction to take these seasons, they've set up some scenarios that shouldn't be finished without some sort of positive resolution. This show sucks at aftercare. They dump huge amounts of heavy nasty emotional crap on the Winchesters and their relationship and then la la la Dean helps Sam off the floor and we're all supposed to be excited that they are on the same page again. Yeah, just no.

I know that everybody gets something different out of each season and that what I'm saying here is all just my own reaction to it all. I hope people are still enjoying it. It seems like they are so I've just been pretty quiet about it all. For me, SPN has made Dean nearly unredeemable and I don't know what to do with that. I no longer see why these guys should stick together and the 'because he's my brother' has lost its appeal or even believability for me. I can't believe I just wrote that. I started this comment calm and level-headed and ended up in tears. Jensen and Jared, as well as the guests they have, work really hard to deliver the great performances they do (to the point of bloody exhaustion) and the crew and directors still do a bang up job with the look and feel of episodes. Individual writers can step up to the challenge but without an overall complete skeleton to hang the episodes on, it feels choppy and like they don't know where they are going either. The disorganization shows no matter what kind of production quality they have. They can't be assembling what they think is a t-rex when it's actually an elephant. The trunk has to go somewhere and the teeth are really weird.

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

That last sentence was brilliant. *hands you tissues*

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

Thanks you. *wipes eyes*

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Excellent comment, I feel you've covered everything I have been uncomfortable about for a long time. Sometimes it just feels so damned mean to criticise something that so many put such brilliant work into and so many are still enjoying, but it breaks my heart to have lost my connections to the Winchesters through a lot of this writing for the sheer drama with no clear path ways or resolutions.

Thank you.

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I think I would be able to handle some of the drama if it was part of a bigger picture that was heading toward character growth but we never seem to get to that point. There doesn't seem to be a bigger picture. I'm tired of the driving push for the drama of the season to be that the brothers aren't going to get along and then at the end, slap a 3 minute scene on it that is supposed to make it better. I've lost my confidence that the show will actually spend any time emotionally putting these characters back together in any kind of meaningful way. Basically they made Sam and Dean's relationship the Big Bad for me, whether intended or not. That's probably all on me but I don't know how to get past it.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Basically they made Sam and Dean's relationship the Big Bad for me, whether intended or not.

*nods*, well said.

No, I don't think it's all you, I've spent the last three seasons not really liking the Winchesters any longer, too many things happen without explanations, too many words spoken with no follow through or ramifications. There's twists and turns to plotting and then there's characters changing track so fast your head will spin. To me they are mere flat shadows of the well rounded flawed characters I knew and I'm not sure if I can get past it either. I watch now pretty much detached from everything.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

All of this. All of it.

And particularly this:

This show sucks at aftercare. They dump huge amounts of heavy nasty emotional crap on the Winchesters and their relationship and then la la la Dean helps Sam off the floor and we're all supposed to be excited that they are on the same page again. Yeah, just no.

This was my big beef with the end of last season. They open this huge can of worms - make Dean do something highly questionable to save Sam, have Sam say some things that turned fandom against him - and fix it all with "I'm proud of us". I hoped that wasn't a bandaid, but it ended up being just that. At least this finale didn't just have one brother doing the reckless thing to save the other. They both did the reckless thing, so at least there can't be a season full of one seeking redemption and forgiveness (I HOPE!).

It has become increasingly clear that it's only about that immediate need for drama - for conflict, without any thought to how they will get them out of it organically. Or how, what they've done in order to save each other, affects the relationship and their understanding of their choices. Or maybe they ARE aware of what they are doing and keep the Winchesters in the dark because they need to keep that theme going.

I would have thought it would be easier to remove that conflict and just have them working together to hunt evil. Sure, they could have their little sibling spats within an episode but they could end those season long anti-trust, deceitful, horrid angst fests.

And you're right - they do still produce great one off episodes and have amazing guest stars. There's a lot of passion from the actors and crew and if stories are to be believed it's a remarkable set to be on. I can only think it comes down to the show runner, not being able to stick to planned threads or be at all interested in overall character growth.

I think individual directors do create themes with their lighting and camera shots (especially Guy Bee), but they aren't carried through to the next director. I also think each writer has a way of seeing the characters and add their interpretation when they write their script.

I am still hooked, but I definitely feel I am able to step back now and not look for the meta or character/story arcs. Shame, because I think a show like this could have such a lot to say.

Thanks so much for your articulate thoughts. <33

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

As some others have also said, I enjoyed the episode while I was watching it and was engaged emotionally throughout, but I think that's more due to the acting and the cinematography than the actual plot. When I looked back over it, I was just plain confused about some parts and had to do some handwaving for others. I've gotten accustomed to doing some of that, but I'm never going to like it.

I still love it though, despite my wish that it would be more coherent.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I was (mostly) engaged also and reacted emotionally at the end, but boy did it leave some questions. I would like to think they'll address some of those next season, but actually I'm becoming pretty good at accepting they won't. I would say they'll just pick it up with something they think will see them through the first half of the year - not addressing the new canon (so does Lucifer have the Mark still like Cain did?) and having neither boys reflect on their actions.

Hoping to enjoy my new found "easy watching" next season…:))

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

It's a disappointing thing to hear, but I'm not sure if it really surprises me. But it is a complicated issue isn't it? I mean we are going into season 11 now, and so I guess it must be harder to have say a 5 year game plan, when you don't know how many more seasons you're going to get, or how long you're going to showrun etc. Saying that, Kripke had a five year plan and I don't suppose they knew for sure whether they were going to be able to tell all five years of it!!

*shrugs shoulders* I'm going to go into this next season with an open mind, and keep avoiding spoilers, and just enjoy the ride. In the meantime there's bound to be plenty of lovely fanworks to enjoy over the summer!!!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's no easy task, that's for sure! And with 10 years and still going they are obviously doing something right. I know they are never sure how many seasons they'll get, but I'd love to think they could create one whole season knowing where and how it's going to end. I'd also love to see some resolutions to come of the ethical issues they raise. But yeah, maybe it's not about that any more. I think, for Carver, it's about the drama and soap element without any real thought into how it connects to what's come before or after.

I'm looking forward to the fan work! (speaking of which…I gotta PM ya!)

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

i checked pretty good, something i forgot to add, if they start fighting again, i might cry too.